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Forums - General - The Act of Speech Deserve No Special Treatment

 

Should people be able to say Anything to their fellow humans?

Yes 18 69.23%
 
No 6 23.08%
 
See results 2 7.69%
 
Total:26

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57405599-71/british-man-jailed-for-racist-tweet/

Don't let the headline fool you, he was jailed because he laughed about a (black) soccer player heart stopping. He got two months in jail. Just one of many examples great examples in thought crime that England has brought us over the past few years.



ǝןdɯıs ʇı dǝǝʞ oʇ ǝʞıן ı ʍouʞ noʎ 

Ask me about being an elitist jerk

Time for hype

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Crono141 said:

Laws prohibiting violence protect people from real physical demonstrable harm.  It is protecting the freedom of people to not be injured.  If I punch someone on the nose, I know for a fact its going to cause them pain, and may break their nose.  If I call someone gay online, I don't know if they'll take it as a joke, shrug it off, be offended and commit suicide, or decide to have a rational discussion about the incident.  I have NO control over that.  The outcome is UNKNOWN, and only ONE of those possible outcomes could be construed as harmful, and there are several that can be construed as beneficial. 

As for suicide, nobody made that person hang themselves, cut themselves, or shoot themselves.  They were all actions the individual chose to take.  I don't like bullying, and the people who take part in it are asses, that's for sure.  But lets not pretend that someone calling you fat or gay forced you in any way to harm yourself.  Under your logic, the guy responsible for the suicide of an investor who lost his fortunes on the stock market rests on the ones responsible for buying his stock and ruining him, not the guy hanging from the rope himself.

If you can't handle any of my "verbal flaps", that is not my problem.  I have absolutely no control over how you or anyone else will react to what I say.  Therefore, any responsibility for actions as a result of how you react to what I say is yours (or theirs).  If I did have that kind of control, then you might have a case, but I'm not a psychic or psionic or any other sci-f-/fantasy creature capable of controlling others thoughts and feelings.  How you feel about what I say is your problem, not mine.


Let me put it this way: A man who gets punched in his nose never chose to have his nose bleeding, or to experience the following pain. In a similar manner, people don't choose to be offended or mentally harmed. If people keep getting punched by others (who may also have the right to do so), the victims won't be able to be free in their own societies. If a person or his/her family can't leave their house without facing massive verbal protests against them living there as a minority, they are anything but free. You can't just shake off whatever hateful words people may throw at you, everyone has their unique limit. And the purpose of our laws in our Nordic society is to stop as many approaches to this limit, among our population, as possible. We want people to be free from verbal offences. America? They want people to be able to throw shit at whoever they want, while it's up to the receiver to learn to clean their shitty clothes.

Nothing good can come out of being intentionally offensive.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:


It is unreasonable to offend someone because of his skin colour, it is unreasonable to offend someone because of his beliefs, it is unreasonable to offend someone because of his sexuality and it is unreasonable to offend someone because of his nationality. Offending a racist may be reasonable if it is the only way to eventually stop it from offending minorities.

People don't choose what to be offended by, which is why we need to be flexible and stop as much offending as possible. A racist being offended because he cannot express his hateful views makes no sense. A religious society being offended by a minority because they don't share their beliefs makes no sense. A Jew being offended by hateful speech every day on his way to work does make sense.

It is all about being reasonable.

I'm offended by this comment.  Can someone please ban this person so they can no longer spout their offensive comments?



Adinnieken said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:


It is unreasonable to offend someone because of his skin colour, it is unreasonable to offend someone because of his beliefs, it is unreasonable to offend someone because of his sexuality and it is unreasonable to offend someone because of his nationality. Offending a racist may be reasonable if it is the only way to eventually stop it from offending minorities.

People don't choose what to be offended by, which is why we need to be flexible and stop as much offending as possible. A racist being offended because he cannot express his hateful views makes no sense. A religious society being offended by a minority because they don't share their beliefs makes no sense. A Jew being offended by hateful speech every day on his way to work does make sense.

It is all about being reasonable.

I'm offended by this comment.  Can someone please ban this person so they can no longer spout their offensive comments?

I am offended by my being offended by this, so I call on a permanent ban for myself, and everyone else who might get offended that I got banned, and those who got offended by those who got banned by my ban getting banned, and everyone leading up to the call for myself being banned by myself.  I also blame the Internet, Netscape, the W3 Consortium and everyone else connected with my calling for myself to be banned.  Heck, let's just shut down the entire InterWebNets and be done with it.

Yes, there is a time for people to GET BACK:




Adinnieken said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:


It is unreasonable to offend someone because of his skin colour, it is unreasonable to offend someone because of his beliefs, it is unreasonable to offend someone because of his sexuality and it is unreasonable to offend someone because of his nationality. Offending a racist may be reasonable if it is the only way to eventually stop it from offending minorities.

People don't choose what to be offended by, which is why we need to be flexible and stop as much offending as possible. A racist being offended because he cannot express his hateful views makes no sense. A religious society being offended by a minority because they don't share their beliefs makes no sense. A Jew being offended by hateful speech every day on his way to work does make sense.

It is all about being reasonable.

I'm offended by this comment.  Can someone please ban this person so they can no longer spout their offensive comments?

You just proved my point. The vgc staff can easily see that my intention was not to offend anyone, while the fairly obvious fact that you are pretending to be offended is more than obvious.

See, a short live demonstration of how the court works.



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Adinnieken said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:


It is unreasonable to offend someone because of his skin colour, it is unreasonable to offend someone because of his beliefs, it is unreasonable to offend someone because of his sexuality and it is unreasonable to offend someone because of his nationality. Offending a racist may be reasonable if it is the only way to eventually stop it from offending minorities.

People don't choose what to be offended by, which is why we need to be flexible and stop as much offending as possible. A racist being offended because he cannot express his hateful views makes no sense. A religious society being offended by a minority because they don't share their beliefs makes no sense. A Jew being offended by hateful speech every day on his way to work does make sense.

It is all about being reasonable.

I'm offended by this comment.  Can someone please ban this person so they can no longer spout their offensive comments?

And this is one of the reasons why speech should be regulated VERY carefully if at all. Who decides what's offensive enough to be forbidden?



People don't have absolute free will. You can't do things that drastically affect the well-being of other people. For example, you cannot make threats harm to other people. You cannot harass others because the victim could press charges. You cannot run into a crowded theatre and say "fire" etc, etc. All of these acts cause a certain level of harm that is far above someone saying "I hate Blacks" or "Fuck Blacks". These are fine since its just the expression of someone's opinion. If a victim feels offended, then they'll just have to deal with it. However, if that person constantly went around shouting "I hate blacks" in an unruly or aggressive manner, then they could be fined/arrested for disturbing the peace and/or harassment. We can't just go arresting people just for making offensive remarks. People should have a right to voice their opinion - no matter how offensive - as long as it doesn't harass others or threaten their health.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Crono141 said:

Laws prohibiting violence protect people from real physical demonstrable harm.  It is protecting the freedom of people to not be injured.  If I punch someone on the nose, I know for a fact its going to cause them pain, and may break their nose.  If I call someone gay online, I don't know if they'll take it as a joke, shrug it off, be offended and commit suicide, or decide to have a rational discussion about the incident.  I have NO control over that.  The outcome is UNKNOWN, and only ONE of those possible outcomes could be construed as harmful, and there are several that can be construed as beneficial. 

As for suicide, nobody made that person hang themselves, cut themselves, or shoot themselves.  They were all actions the individual chose to take.  I don't like bullying, and the people who take part in it are asses, that's for sure.  But lets not pretend that someone calling you fat or gay forced you in any way to harm yourself.  Under your logic, the guy responsible for the suicide of an investor who lost his fortunes on the stock market rests on the ones responsible for buying his stock and ruining him, not the guy hanging from the rope himself.

If you can't handle any of my "verbal flaps", that is not my problem.  I have absolutely no control over how you or anyone else will react to what I say.  Therefore, any responsibility for actions as a result of how you react to what I say is yours (or theirs).  If I did have that kind of control, then you might have a case, but I'm not a psychic or psionic or any other sci-f-/fantasy creature capable of controlling others thoughts and feelings.  How you feel about what I say is your problem, not mine.


Let me put it this way: A man who gets punched in his nose never chose to have his nose bleeding, or to experience the following pain. In a similar manner, people don't choose to be offended or mentally harmed. If people keep getting punched by others (who may also have the right to do so), the victims won't be able to be free in their own societies. If a person or his/her family can't leave their house without facing massive verbal protests against them living there as a minority, they are anything but free. You can't just shake off whatever hateful words people may throw at you, everyone has their unique limit. And the purpose of our laws in our Nordic society is to stop as many approaches to this limit, among our population, as possible. We want people to be free from verbal offences. America? They want people to be able to throw shit at whoever they want, while it's up to the receiver to learn to clean their shitty clothes.

Nothing good can come out of being intentionally offensive.

You missed my point.  My point was that if I insult someone their reaction is UNKNOWN.  There is no way to determine before I say something how that person will react to what is said.  I don't know if they'll feel pain, or anguish, or find it funny, or want to have a discourse.  Thats the cool thing about free speech, you never know where its going to go and what NEW ideas or changed points of view will result.  And who do you trust to determine if an off color joke was meant to genuinely insult or to just be silly.  I don't trust anyone, especially in a political climate as volatile as ours.

As for feigning insult, the examples here were intentionally satiracle.  There are TONS of instances in the political discourse of the Unites States where one party or groups acts far more insulted by something someone said (who happens to be their political enemy) than they have any right to.  They do this with the express and explicit intent to silence their enemy through intimidation and social reprisal.

EDIT: Also, being insulted or offended is not mental harm.  Perhaps repeated and consistent insults or offenses might be shown to cause a disorder in the long term, but a single instance of insult or offense does not cause mental harm.  And we do have laws governing that sort of behavior: its called harrasment.



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Crono141 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Let me put it this way: A man who gets punched in his nose never chose to have his nose bleeding, or to experience the following pain. In a similar manner, people don't choose to be offended or mentally harmed. If people keep getting punched by others (who may also have the right to do so), the victims won't be able to be free in their own societies. If a person or his/her family can't leave their house without facing massive verbal protests against them living there as a minority, they are anything but free. You can't just shake off whatever hateful words people may throw at you, everyone has their unique limit. And the purpose of our laws in our Nordic society is to stop as many approaches to this limit, among our population, as possible. We want people to be free from verbal offences. America? They want people to be able to throw shit at whoever they want, while it's up to the receiver to learn to clean their shitty clothes.

Nothing good can come out of being intentionally offensive.

You missed my point.  My point was that if I insult someone their reaction is UNKNOWN.  There is no way to determine before I say something how that person will react to what is said.  I don't know if they'll feel pain, or anguish, or find it funny, or want to have a discourse.  Thats the cool thing about free speech, you never know where its going to go and what NEW ideas or changed points of view will result.  And who do you trust to determine if an off color joke was meant to genuinely insult or to just be silly.  I don't trust anyone, especially in a political climate as volatile as ours.

As for feigning insult, the examples here were intentionally satiracle.  There are TONS of instances in the political discourse of the Unites States where one party or groups acts far more insulted by something someone said (who happens to be their political enemy) than they have any right to.  They do this with the express and explicit intent to silence their enemy through intimidation and social reprisal.


The reaction following an insult is irrelevant. An insult is still an insult. You never expect positive feedback or results from insulting someone, because that's what we call a joke. Yes, jokes may or may not be misinterpreted, but the reason why the joke was made is what matters. The joke-makers may lie in an attempt to bypass the system but then again, that's what we have the court systems for: To make it as fair as possible for as many as possible.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Crono141 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Let me put it this way: A man who gets punched in his nose never chose to have his nose bleeding, or to experience the following pain. In a similar manner, people don't choose to be offended or mentally harmed. If people keep getting punched by others (who may also have the right to do so), the victims won't be able to be free in their own societies. If a person or his/her family can't leave their house without facing massive verbal protests against them living there as a minority, they are anything but free. You can't just shake off whatever hateful words people may throw at you, everyone has their unique limit. And the purpose of our laws in our Nordic society is to stop as many approaches to this limit, among our population, as possible. We want people to be free from verbal offences. America? They want people to be able to throw shit at whoever they want, while it's up to the receiver to learn to clean their shitty clothes.

Nothing good can come out of being intentionally offensive.

You missed my point.  My point was that if I insult someone their reaction is UNKNOWN.  There is no way to determine before I say something how that person will react to what is said.  I don't know if they'll feel pain, or anguish, or find it funny, or want to have a discourse.  Thats the cool thing about free speech, you never know where its going to go and what NEW ideas or changed points of view will result.  And who do you trust to determine if an off color joke was meant to genuinely insult or to just be silly.  I don't trust anyone, especially in a political climate as volatile as ours.

As for feigning insult, the examples here were intentionally satiracle.  There are TONS of instances in the political discourse of the Unites States where one party or groups acts far more insulted by something someone said (who happens to be their political enemy) than they have any right to.  They do this with the express and explicit intent to silence their enemy through intimidation and social reprisal.


The reaction following an insult is irrelevant. An insult is still an insult. You never expect positive feedback or results from insulting someone, because that's what we call a joke. Yes, jokes may or may not be misinterpreted, but the reason why the joke was made is what matters. The joke-makers may lie in an attempt to bypass the system but then again, that's what we have the court systems for: To make it as fair as possible for as many as possible.

Limiting speech is never fair or just.



Check out my Youtube Let's Play channel here.