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Forums - Politics Discussion - How can the GOP be argued to be pro-life instead of merely pro-birth, at best?

richardhutnik said:
gergroy said:
richardhutnik said:
gergroy said:
I think you are exaggerating quite a bit with your argument here. Now, I don't agree with outlawing abortion so I'm not going to defend it. However, if abortion isn't an option then I would think most women would just go through adoption agencies, I don't think you would find many women dumping babies in dumpsters. When couples adopt, they also agree to pay for all the healthcare related to the birth of the child.

So, yeah... a bit of an exaggeration.

I could show example after example of the GOP slashing funding to social programs.  I would like you to show where the GOP would support any sort of funding to make this so.

Here is the GOP platform on abortion, where they speak of a pro-life agenda:

http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Republican_Party_Abortion.htm

 

Again, what is this "Pro-life agenda" the GOP has?

did you even read my post? because your response doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I said...

I read your post.  I was trying not to take it as what I thought i read it as.  If you outlaw abortion then there wouldn't be a problem with unwanted births, because almost all children put up for adoption would find homes to take care of the kids.  Currently there are over 130,000 children waiting to be adopted today: http://www.chacha.com/question/how-many-children-remain-unadopted-in-america

Add over 30,000 more a year due to forced pregnancy due to rape and how much do you think it would go up?

I mention GOP policy, because they are the one pushing views seen here by some, that the government isn't supposed to do anything to address the issue.


like I said, I don't think abortion should be outlawed.  My point is that there is already a system in place that handles unwanted pregnancies which includes paying for healthcare and such for the pregnant mother without government funding.  If you actually read my post, I was actually just commenting on how ridiculous your exageration of mothers ditching babies in dumpsters and arresting rape victims was.  



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Dude. That's like arguing that democrats aren't "pro choice" because they don't believe that taxes should be voluntary.

Nevermind the fact, I imagine republicans think that people who would go through the trouble of aborting their children would instead put them up for adoption.



richardhutnik said:
gergroy said:
richardhutnik said:
gergroy said:

I



I read your post.  I was trying not to take it as what I thought i read it as.  If you outlaw abortion then there wouldn't be a problem with unwanted births, because almost all children put up for adoption would find homes to take care of the kids.  Currently there are over 130,000 children waiting to be adopted today: http://www.chacha.com/question/how-many-children-remain-unadopted-in-america

Add over 30,000 more a year due to forced pregnancy due to rape and how much do you think it would go up?

I mention GOP policy, because they are the one pushing views seen here by some, that the government isn't supposed to do anything to address the issue.


Probably not that much.

The children who aren't adopted are children taken away from their parents at an older age.  There is a huge shortage of newborns.

Brian H. Bix, Perfectionist Policies in Family Law, 2007 U. ILL. L. REV. 1055, 1061 (2007)

("[G]iven the current supply and demand for children for adoption, there is
every reason to believe that a baby given up immediately after birth would have no trouble
finding a loving home.").

The only issue really would be that a number of minority advocacy groups tend to fight adoptions of non-white children to white parents, even if that means they will be stuck in foster care.  )Of course said groups also tend to see abortion as a "stealth genocide of minorities.")

In general, most perspective adopted parents don't care about race but they DO care about age.  Wanting the "Full childraising expierence" and not wanting a child who doesn't see them as their "first" parents.



killerzX said:
richardhutnik said:
thranx said:
richardhutnik said:

Ok, this is the following, if I go with the GOP priorities on welfare, and the political views of the GOP on abortion issue:

* No abortions, period.  Rape (incest as a subset of rape) is not an excuse to terminate the life of a child.

* It is not the role of the government to provide any form of welfare to anyone, outside of the elderly.  The Federal government has no place providing any sort of prenatal care for women either.  

Combining these two policies, the following is a reality: Women who got pregnant due to being raped will get no help from the government to help bring the child to birth, or to help care for the child afterwards.   Heck, the government isn't even going to fund adoption support either.

So, how exactly can anyone, like the GOP, have a policy where women are forced to give birth on the one had, and also provide no resources to enable them to do that?  How exactly is that pro-life?  At best, it is a weak form of pro-birth, AT BEST... but there is no indication of that even be supported.  It is a case of back-alley birthings... and I guess the newborn gets put in a dumpster and abandoned.  But then again, maybe seeing this, the state can step in and put the woman in prison for considering this.  So, maybe the best policy would be to put women who are raped in prison.  They would at least get some health care.

 


Just because they don't feel the government should be doling out welfare does not mean they themelves do not care. It mearly means they don't want the government being the ones to do it. Perhaps they feel their church is better at distributin welfare and helping people or tha they themselves want to help people. Aren't republicans known for donationg more of their money to charity that democrats?

And you also believe in a complete and total ban on abortion, even in the case of rape?  If so, defend the view that you support this view, of forcing a woman to give birth, but then proving no support in the process.

If you don't support this, or aren't Republican, then what I wrote on really wouldn't apply to yourself and you are more than free to say NO WELFARE.  At least you are consistent.

if abortion is wrong, its because the embroyo is a human being.

so at the moment of fertalization its human, it doesnt magically become non-human because the dad is a rapist.

being a human doesnt rely on who the dad was, or else we could kill all people who's dad were rapists.

 

also im on the fence about this, but i feel if the child has no parent who will take care of it, it is the responsibility of governement to intervene and help the child. i think that goes for all non working age peoplle/ minors. just like when kids have abusive or neglecting parents, child services take the kid away and they become wards of the state. but this goes for just children. i think think you would find almost all republicans in support of this.

And this runs into the problem that is at the crux of the matter.  On the one side is stated taxation is theft, and you have Grover Norquist getting politicians to say no more tax increases.   There is repeated talks of cuts.  What happens is that problems build up, because societies fail to do anything, and the government is left with it.  Policies have unintend consequences, just as would competely outlawing abortion.  Lip service is paid but nothing is really done to help.  People try, but the trying is focused on the giver and how much better they are than Liberals.  It is not on the poor.

As much as there may be a desire for it, show me there is an interest anywhere to make sure there is sufficient money to cover it.   I do not see it.

I find stuff like this though:



How medieval an ideology that a woman should be forced to carry to term - and give birth to - a child she conceived through rape.

Force being the operative word here. After being forced into sexual intercourse, she's then forced into motherhood. If she can't prevent the first scenario, she should at least have some say in the second one.

I personally wouldn't want an eternal reminder of such a horrible event, and doubt I could ever look at my child and NOT see their origin story.



Highwaystar101 said: trashleg said that if I didn't pay back the money she leant me, she would come round and break my legs... That's why people call her trashleg, because she trashes the legs of the people she loan sharks money to.
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because if that baby ever commits a crime they'll cheer and applaud as they take it's life.



trashleg said:
How medieval an ideology that a woman should be forced to carry to term - and give birth to - a child she conceived through rape.

Force being the operative word here. After being forced into sexual intercourse, she's then forced into motherhood. If she can't prevent the first scenario, she should at least have some say in the second one.

I personally wouldn't want an eternal reminder of such a horrible event, and doubt I could ever look at my child and NOT see their origin story.

There is one bit of being offended by this you didn't mention.  How about forcing all that, AND DOING NOTHING to help out either.  In short, the woman gets less humane treatment than someone in prison.  At least people who got drafted, and heck slaves, got food and shelter and basic medical coverage.  The GOP doesn't believe in any of that apparently.  They just want to make it illegal and have the chips fall where they may.  In short, as I said, a back-alley birthing.



richardhutnik said:
trashleg said:
How medieval an ideology that a woman should be forced to carry to term - and give birth to - a child she conceived through rape.

Force being the operative word here. After being forced into sexual intercourse, she's then forced into motherhood. If she can't prevent the first scenario, she should at least have some say in the second one.

I personally wouldn't want an eternal reminder of such a horrible event, and doubt I could ever look at my child and NOT see their origin story.

There is one bit of being offended by this you didn't mention.  How about forcing all that, AND DOING NOTHING to help out either.  In short, the woman gets less humane treatment than someone in prison.  At least people who got drafted, and heck slaves, got food and shelter and basic medical coverage.  The GOP doesn't believe in any of that apparently.  They just want to make it illegal and have the chips fall where they may.  In short, as I said, a back-alley birthing.

I guess I didn't comment on that because in my country we have the NHS. And care "from the cradle to the grave". So even if abortion was illegal, the woman and her child would be cared for. I find it difficult to imagine a life so hopeless. Like I said though, a very medieval ideology. Who owns an individual's body and the rights to it - according to this politician, in cases of rape the rights belong to the state. Sickening.



Highwaystar101 said: trashleg said that if I didn't pay back the money she leant me, she would come round and break my legs... That's why people call her trashleg, because she trashes the legs of the people she loan sharks money to.
trashleg said:
richardhutnik said:
trashleg said:
How medieval an ideology that a woman should be forced to carry to term - and give birth to - a child she conceived through rape.

Force being the operative word here. After being forced into sexual intercourse, she's then forced into motherhood. If she can't prevent the first scenario, she should at least have some say in the second one.

I personally wouldn't want an eternal reminder of such a horrible event, and doubt I could ever look at my child and NOT see their origin story.

There is one bit of being offended by this you didn't mention.  How about forcing all that, AND DOING NOTHING to help out either.  In short, the woman gets less humane treatment than someone in prison.  At least people who got drafted, and heck slaves, got food and shelter and basic medical coverage.  The GOP doesn't believe in any of that apparently.  They just want to make it illegal and have the chips fall where they may.  In short, as I said, a back-alley birthing.

I guess I didn't comment on that because in my country we have the NHS. And care "from the cradle to the grave". So even if abortion was illegal, the woman and her child would be cared for. I find it difficult to imagine a life so hopeless. Like I said though, a very medieval ideology. Who owns an individual's body and the rights to it - according to this politician, in cases of rape the rights belong to the state. Sickening.

In America, you have the GOP side (this is what I am talking about) that both wants to outlaw abortion for every single context and NOT have any form of government assistance for people in need, unless they are elderly, because it would be political suicide to do so.  In fact, I have with me a card by one pro-GOP super-PAC that talks about how Democrats want to cut funds for Medicare.

 

You can see thinking on this subject here:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110323205706AAtoJIE

One quote:

pro life protects defenseless babies that are going to be killed by their mothers 

welfare rewards laziness and keeps people from trying to improve their lives 

being pro life doesnt mean i want to pay some lazy bums way forever

 

Again, with that mentality, it is as I said, it is pro-birth, not pro-life.

 

I did point this at the GOP, because the pro-life movement itself apparently has a range of opinions on government welfare:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/189172/welfare-and-pro-life-movement/michael-j-new