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Forums - General Discussion - Your "Free" Will is Not Free

Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
A hard decision can be differentiated from "easy" decisions because unlike easy decisions, no sensory input can achieve majority.

If you are saying that we make our decisions are based on sensory input, then what about "hard" decisions then? Dont your "sensors" conflict against each other in a hard decision? Often achieving equal consequences for all options that was though of?

Then there must be an "X" factor in the equation. Which is free will.

I don't think so. First of all, I believe that perfectly equal preference for all options is a very rare case, given the incredible large number of neurons and synapses in the brain. It's oversimplified, but I'd compare the brain's decision-making process to a voting with, say, 1000000000 voters and two options. An "easy" decision would be if, say, 90% of the votes were in favor of one option. A hard decision would be if votes were close to 50% : 50%, but in practice the chance of the result being exactly 500000000:500000000 votes would be very small.

And in such "hard decision" situations at some point the brain probably simply "rolls the dice". But I wouldn't consider that free will, I'd rather compare it to the way computers generate pseudo-random numbers.

On the Wikipedia page, they mention an experiment from the 90s, where participants were asked to randomly choose one of their hands and move it. In a way this can be considered a "hard decision" according to your definition, since there is no obvious preferable choice, and one might expect a 50:50 result. But as it turned out, right-handed people chose their right hand with a 60% probability. If, however, the right side of their brain was stimulated by a magnetic field, the probability of right-handed people chosing their right hand dropped to just 20%, and yet the participants were still convinced they made their decision purely based on free will.



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badgenome said:
Yes, the kid did make a decision. He could have decided to buy the Coke anyway. Just because, in the absence of coercion, you tend to make decisions based on your personal preferences doesn't mean you can't still choose differently. It's just that... why would you?


Not to mention research more or less shows we DON'T always make the same descision under nerarly identical circumstances.

I mean, if you eat at the same restraunt weekly, you don't order the same food every week do you?

Sometimes you just want something different.

Why?  There really isn't a proper reason behaviorly for this to be so.



kain_kusanagi said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
kain_kusanagi said:

That is total and utter bullshit. No offense, but it is 100% hokum.

The kid could have decided not to buy either and get a drink from a water fountain and eat an apple when he gets home. Or he could buy a bag of chips or a toy or put the money in a piggy bank and save it up for college. Even after picking one and walking to the check stand his eye could catch a more enticing choice. Maybe at the check stand the kid could end up donating the money in the disabled jar instead of buying anything.

Anybody can make up an example with only two choices and then rationalize it and make it seem plausible. The real world is much more complex and full of real choices. Our past does not dictate our lives it only informs us so that we can plan our future. The present is so full of choices we filter it out and don't even realize the hundreds of choices we make because they are often so trivial. We only notice the choices we make when faces with need, want, health, love, etc.

Free will exists because anything else is impossible. There is no computer program running our lives. We are the writers of our own plotlines. What we choose to believe and do is our responsibility alone.


Of course there are countless options for the kid, but the two presented are the only options that he really care about and are considering at the moment. I just wanted to make an as simple scenario as possible (unlike you who did the opposite) because this is applicable whenever a decision is made.

Your simple scenario is so flawed that it illustrates nothing. We are all 100% responsible for our actions and choices. Your arguement would place all blame for bad choices on history. That's the problem. We may not be able to change our past, but we are in control of our present and future. Our past only gives us a context to make choices in our present so that we can set our future. Nothing more, nothing less. I suppose you think a rapist isn't at fault because his life leading up to his crime forced him to do it?


You don't really believe you're in control do you? Master of your own fate? How much control did you have over your ethnicity, where you were born, your physical appearance, level of intelligence, athletic ability, how your parents raised you and the affect that had on you etc. etc. etc.? You think you're in control now? A little tragedy should change your mind. Spouse dies, illness, car crash, lost job because another employee had it in for you, some asshole shoots you in a theater etc. etc. etc. .

The truth is that we are completely at the mercy of forces beyond ourselves. It's a very difficult thing for the human ego to accept though so it deludes itself.

The rapist, like the rest of us, is at the mercy of theses forces but that doesn't justify his behavior or free him from the penalty of it. I kind of see it like cattle(or sheep and goats if you prefer) being herded. The cow can choose to stop and eat grass, it can go with the flow, it can even try to run away but ultimately it's destination is determined by the one doing the herding. 



                                

You always have the will to decide between two (or more) things.

I usually get the South Western Egg rolls at Chili's because it's my personal preference. But wait! One day I went for a Cheeseburger, I must be tricking the system, right? No, I just decided to not get what I usually get because I can... it's my choice.



Kasz216 said:


Not to mention research more or less shows we DON'T always make the same descision under nerarly identical circumstances.

I mean, if you eat at the same restraunt weekly, you don't order the same food every week do you?

Sometimes you just want something different.

Why?  There really isn't a proper reason behaviorly for this to be so.


Yes there is. Eating the same food over and over will eventually cause you to not enjoy it as much as you used to, which is not desirable. Eating pasta every day just because it's your favorite food makes no sense because  that's not the best way to enjoy your pasta. Once again, it comes down to maximizing profits.

As for not making the same decisions under nearly identical circumstances, the reason to that is not only the slight environmental difference, but also how you feel at the moment. Tired, active, happy, sad and all other feelings greatly changes what you would consider "profitable" at that moment.

And it makes no sense to compare how different humans react under the same circumstances.



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NintendoPie said:

You always have the will to decide between two (or more) things.

I usually get the South Western Egg rolls at Chili's because it's my personal preference. But wait! One day I went for a Cheeseburger, I must be tricking the system, right? No, I just decided to not get what I usually get because I can... it's my choice.


The circumstances and your need for variation made you choose the cheeseburger. At that moment, the cheeseburger was actually your favorite choice.

Yes, it is your choice, but your choice will always be in accordance with your personal preference. Choosing differently is never an option.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Kasz216 said:


Not to mention research more or less shows we DON'T always make the same descision under nerarly identical circumstances.

I mean, if you eat at the same restraunt weekly, you don't order the same food every week do you?

Sometimes you just want something different.

Why?  There really isn't a proper reason behaviorly for this to be so.


Yes there is. Eating the same food over and over will eventually cause you to not enjoy it as much as you used to, which is not desirable. Eating pasta every day just because it's your favorite food makes no sense because  that's not the best way to enjoy your pasta. Once again, it comes down to maximizing profits.


Except that's not a logical conclusion under a "no free will" scenario.

Additionally, that doesn't bear out when it comes to scientific testing.

If you study the testing of behavior you'll actually find peoples choices tend to be quite variable, even when in the exact same circumstances, and that often times they knowingly pick things less preferable.

Essentially i'd suggest picking up a couple psychology courses or a psychology book.



Kasz216 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Kasz216 said:


Not to mention research more or less shows we DON'T always make the same descision under nerarly identical circumstances.

I mean, if you eat at the same restraunt weekly, you don't order the same food every week do you?

Sometimes you just want something different.

Why?  There really isn't a proper reason behaviorly for this to be so.


Yes there is. Eating the same food over and over will eventually cause you to not enjoy it as much as you used to, which is not desirable. Eating pasta every day just because it's your favorite food makes no sense because  that's not the best way to enjoy your pasta. Once again, it comes down to maximizing profits.


Except that's not a logical conclusion under a "no free will" scenario.

Additionally, that doesn't bear out when it comes to scientific testing.

If you study the testing of behavior you'll actually find peoples choices tend to be quite variable, even when in the exact same circumstances, and that often times they knowingly pick things less preferable.

Essentially i'd suggest picking up a couple psychology courses or a psychology book.

Except sometimes choosing the less preferable options can also be the most profitable options. Buddhists are prime examples of this. In the end, they profit from disregarding/removing their desires.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Kasz216 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Kasz216 said:


Not to mention research more or less shows we DON'T always make the same descision under nerarly identical circumstances.

I mean, if you eat at the same restraunt weekly, you don't order the same food every week do you?

Sometimes you just want something different.

Why?  There really isn't a proper reason behaviorly for this to be so.


Yes there is. Eating the same food over and over will eventually cause you to not enjoy it as much as you used to, which is not desirable. Eating pasta every day just because it's your favorite food makes no sense because  that's not the best way to enjoy your pasta. Once again, it comes down to maximizing profits.


Except that's not a logical conclusion under a "no free will" scenario.

Additionally, that doesn't bear out when it comes to scientific testing.

If you study the testing of behavior you'll actually find peoples choices tend to be quite variable, even when in the exact same circumstances, and that often times they knowingly pick things less preferable.

Essentially i'd suggest picking up a couple psychology courses or a psychology book.

Except sometimes choosing the less preferable options can also be the most profitable options. Buddhists are prime examples of this. In the end, they profit from disregarding/removing their desires.


Benefit... how.  trust me... just red up a bit on actually what your saying... and you'll get it.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Except sometimes choosing the less preferable options can also be the most profitable options. Buddhists are prime examples of this. In the end, they profit from disregarding/removing their desires.

But that doesn't preclude free will. If anything, it's a demonstration of it. Because someone may find it more profoundly fulfilling to not indulge themselves doesn't mean there isn't still a constant battle of will power to not do those things. They are exercising their will to do something that isn't easy.

An animal can't do anything other than what it wants to do, therefore it doesn't have a free will. Whereas a person can very easily do just what he wants, or he can - with some degree of effort - do the exact opposite.