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Forums - General Discussion - Your "Free" Will is Not Free

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

The concept of free will is very basic. When a man is faced by two or more different alternatives, he supposedly has the ability of independently make a decision. This makes us able to tell him that: "You should not have murdered that man. You could have chosen to not murder him, yet you chose to do it." In other words, we are able to accuse him of making the "wrong" decision. To the great masses all of this is- or at least should be something obvious, but to me this makes no sense.

Let's begin with going through the basics of how to make a decision. A kid goes to the store and is faced with two options: Buying a Coke for one dollar or some candy for at least 50 cent. On one hand, he can save 50 cent by buying candy, but he is also confident that he would enjoy the Coke more since it's a sunny day. In the end though, he goes for the candy since he want to be able to buy candy tomorrow as well. But did the kid make this decision? No. All he did was acting according to personal preference. Had it been more sunny outside, he would probably have made a different decision, but in this case he would prefer to enjoy candy the next day as well. The decision was already made through previous and current sensory input which shaped his preferences. Thus, selecting the Coke was not an option.

This goes for every single decision we make throughout our lives. We search through our past and choose whatever matches our personal preferences the most. We were not ever able to make any decisions independently, because preference is not something you choose. That would be like saying: "Today my favorite colour shall be green." when in reality you know that red will always be your favorite. You can't "choose" otherwise.

This is why I don't think it makes any sense to say that the previously mentioned murderer made the "wrong decision". All he did was to act according to personal preference just like everybody else does every single day. We can say that his actions were awful and that actions need to be made so that he won't do something similar again, but we can't blame him for acting according to preference, just like we can't blame anyone for liking whichever sports team he may prefer.

 

To sum it up: Every single decision you make is entirely based on your personal preference, which you can't overlook. Humans will always seek for the greatest possible amount of profit through their actions, and whatever that profit consists of is based on that very same personal preference.

That is total and utter bullshit. No offense, but it is 100% hokum.

The kid could have decided not to buy either and get a drink from a water fountain and eat an apple when he gets home. Or he could buy a bag of chips or a toy or put the money in a piggy bank and save it up for college. Even after picking one and walking to the check stand his eye could catch a more enticing choice. Maybe at the check stand the kid could end up donating the money in the disabled jar instead of buying anything.

Anybody can make up an example with only two choices and then rationalize it and make it seem plausible. The real world is much more complex and full of real choices. Our past does not dictate our lives it only informs us so that we can plan our future. The present is so full of choices we filter it out and don't even realize the hundreds of choices we make because they are often so trivial. We only notice the choices we make when faces with need, want, health, love, etc.

Free will exists because anything else is impossible. There is no computer program running our lives. We are the writers of our own plotlines. What we choose to believe and do is our responsibility alone.



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IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Yes, xLefty and HappySquriel, you do have a point. The purpose of this thread is not to disprove free will (because that would be impossible), but to stop people from saying "Fuck him/her for commiting such actions." when in reality you can explain/justify them.

Well then, this thread has failed. Fuck James Holmes, and fuck anyone who would try to justify mass murder even harder.



kain_kusanagi said:

That is total and utter bullshit. No offense, but it is 100% hokum.

The kid could have decided not to buy either and get a drink from a water fountain and eat an apple when he gets home. Or he could buy a bag of chips or a toy or put the money in a piggy bank and save it up for college. Even after picking one and walking to the check stand his eye could catch a more enticing choice. Maybe at the check stand the kid could end up donating the money in the disabled jar instead of buying anything.

Anybody can make up an example with only two choices and then rationalize it and make it seem plausible. The real world is much more complex and full of real choices. Our past does not dictate our lives it only informs us so that we can plan our future. The present is so full of choices we filter it out and don't even realize the hundreds of choices we make because they are often so trivial. We only notice the choices we make when faces with need, want, health, love, etc.

Free will exists because anything else is impossible. There is no computer program running our lives. We are the writers of our own plotlines. What we choose to believe and do is our responsibility alone.


Of course there are countless options for the kid, but the two presented are the only options that he really care about and are considering at the moment. I just wanted to make an as simple scenario as possible (unlike you who did the opposite) because this is applicable whenever a decision is made.



badgenome said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Yes, xLefty and HappySquriel, you do have a point. The purpose of this thread is not to disprove free will (because that would be impossible), but to stop people from saying "Fuck him/her for commiting such actions." when in reality you can explain/justify them.

Well then, this thread has failed. Fuck James Holmes, and fuck anyone who would try to justify mass murder even harder.


I'd say you simply fail to understand James Holmes' and every other mass murderer's reasoning.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

The concept of free will is very basic. When a man is faced by two or more different alternatives, he supposedly has the ability of independently make a decision. This makes us able to tell him that: "You should not have murdered that man. You could have chosen to not murder him, yet you chose to do it." In other words, we are able to accuse him of making the "wrong" decision. To the great masses all of this is- or at least should be something obvious, but to me this makes no sense.

Let's begin with going through the basics of how to make a decision. A kid goes to the store and is faced with two options: Buying a Coke for one dollar or some candy for at least 50 cent. On one hand, he can save 50 cent by buying candy, but he is also confident that he would enjoy the Coke more since it's a sunny day. In the end though, he goes for the candy since he want to be able to buy candy tomorrow as well. But did the kid make this decision? No. All he did was acting according to personal preference. Had it been more sunny outside, he would probably have made a different decision, but in this case he would prefer to enjoy candy the next day as well. The decision was already made through previous and current sensory input which shaped his preferences. Thus, selecting the Coke was not an option.

This goes for every single decision we make throughout our lives. We search through our past and choose whatever matches our personal preferences the most. We were not ever able to make any decisions independently, because preference is not something you choose. That would be like saying: "Today my favorite colour shall be green." when in reality you know that red will always be your favorite. You can't "choose" otherwise.

This is why I don't think it makes any sense to say that the previously mentioned murderer made the "wrong decision". All he did was to act according to personal preference just like everybody else does every single day. We can say that his actions were awful and that actions need to be made so that he won't do something similar again, but we can't blame him for acting according to preference, just like we can't blame anyone for liking whichever sports team he may prefer.

 

To sum it up: Every single decision you make is entirely based on your personal preference, which you can't overlook. Humans will always seek for the greatest possible amount of profit through their actions, and whatever that profit consists of is based on that very same personal preference.

The kid chose to go to the store instead of stay home and choose which porn to FAP to.



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WiiBox3 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Let's begin with going through the basics of how to make a decision. A kid goes to the store and is faced with two options: Buying a Coke for one dollar or some candy for at least 50 cent. On one hand, he can save 50 cent by buying candy, but he is also confident that he would enjoy the Coke more since it's a sunny day. In the end though, he goes for the candy since he want to be able to buy candy tomorrow as well. But did the kid make this decision? No. All he did was acting according to personal preference. Had it been more sunny outside, he would probably have made a different decision, but in this case he would prefer to enjoy candy the next day as well. The decision was already made through previous and current sensory input which shaped his preferences. Thus, selecting the Coke was not an option.

The kid chose to go to the store instead of stay home and choose which porn to FAP to.


Thanks for expanding my story.

How did the he resonate when making those choices though? I believe you forgot those parts.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Yes, xLefty and HappySquriel, you do have a point. The purpose of this thread is not to disprove free will (because that would be impossible), but to stop people from saying "Fuck him/her for commiting such actions." when in reality you can explain/justify them.

Sure, you can explain such deeds. Now tell me, what purpose does doing do serve?



Zkuq said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Yes, xLefty and HappySquriel, you do have a point. The purpose of this thread is not to disprove free will (because that would be impossible), but to stop people from saying "Fuck him/her for commiting such actions." when in reality you can explain/justify them.

Sure, you can explain such deeds. Now tell me, what purpose does doing do serve?


If you know the reason(s) to why criminals commit their crimes it should obviously improve future crime-preventive works. Just saying "Fuck criminals!" won't help anyone, including those criminals.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

I'd say you simply fail to understand James Holmes' and every other mass murderer's reasoning.

Thankfully. I'd wager it's something like, "Boo hoo, I washed out of college and my girlfriend dumped me. Woe is me, everyone thinks I'm a loser. Well, I'm gonna show that mean old society what a tough guy I really am." Then again, I don't really give a shit what he thought.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Yes, xLefty and HappySquriel, you do have a point. The purpose of this thread is not to disprove free will (because that would be impossible), but to stop people from saying "Fuck him/her for commiting such actions." when in reality you can explain/justify them.

Everyone has a rationalization hamster that spins on its wheel trying to justify irrational acts, that doesn't mean that we have to accept other people's rationalizations for their acts though ... The best examples of sick rationalizations are those that enable child molestors to commit their vile acts; and we should not feel guilty as a society for condemning these perverts for their disgusting crimes.

There are few mass murders that were committed by individuals with rational explainations or under justifiable reasons, and none that exclusively targeted unarmed civilians. Anyone that committed an act like the shooting in Colorado should never be given the freedom to make another decision which could have a negative impact on another individual; because at best you could claim that their reasoning is sick, and realistically could claim that they're immoral and dangerous.