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Forums - General Discussion - Your "Free" Will is Not Free

Jay520 said:

But seriously, let's be honest, THE1. You're claim - Everyone does something for a reason - cannot be justified. The reason is because it cannot be falsified. It cannot be proven wrong, even in theory. The even idea of your  claimcannot be proven wrong. Whenever ANYONE does ANYTHING, you can ALWAYS give some random reason for why they did it - BUT it is not possible to test, and therefore confirm, if those reasons are accurate. We have no way of knowing if those reasons are actually correct

For example, let's say Tommy was walking down the street and stopped to look at a bug. You could explain it by saying Johny stopped because the bug fascinated him and caught his attention. But let's say Johny didn't stop to look at the bug. You could explain it by saying Johny doesn't care about bugs because of the way he was raised. But let's say Johny stopped, but didn't look at the air. You could explain it by saying Johny felt a stiffness and his leg and need to stop to relieve the pain. But let's say Johny stopped and started dancing randomly. You could explain it by saying Johny suddenly felt a tingling sensation in his body which caused a mixture of chemicals in his brain to cause his body to want to dance. But let's say Johny ran in front of a truck and commited suicide. You could explain it by saying Johny had thouroughly considered the potential future of his life and had made the valid conclusion that his life was worthless. But let's say Johny started walking very slowly. You could explain by just saying "Johny felt like walking slow"

The problem is none of these explanations can be tested. As such, we don't know if they are actually true or not. I could pull some random explanation out of my ass everytime and you wouldn't be able to prove me wrong. It is impossible to prove anything if it cannot be tested. I'm pretty sure you've used that argument against religion before too.


The problem, as presented in the OP, is that people assume that criminals could have acted in a different way than they did. I say they did some reasoning, which is directly affected by their personal preferences and experiences, each time they made a decision. And acting against that reasoning makes no sense at all. Sure, they may even regret their decision afterwards (like, after being sent to jail...), but at the time they wanted to commit their crimes. It was worth the risk to them.

Ask anyone why they did something and you will hear an explanation, unless certain cases where the person has some mental issues, for instance. People resonates differently (just like we all have different skin colour), and how they resonate depends entirely on their brain structure and all past and present sensory input.

 

This is what I think, and how I resonate. I'm not claming to have made a groundbreaking scientific discovery, and I may very well be wrong. But I do think that my thoughts makes sense.



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Kain, try to control your quote trees, please. Nobody really reads the quoted text unless you reference it.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:


The problem, as presented in the OP, is that people assume that criminals could have acted in a different way than they did. I say they did some reasoning, which is directly affected by their personal preferences and experiences, each time they made a decision. And acting against that reasoning makes no sense at all. Sure, they may even regret their decision afterwards (like, after being sent to jail...), but at the time they wanted to commit their crimes. It was worth the risk to them.

Ask anyone why they did something and you will hear an explanation, unless certain cases where the person has some mental issues, for instance. People resonates differently (just like we all have different skin colour), and how they resonate depends entirely on their brain structure and all past and present sensory input.

 

This is what I think, and how I resonate. I'm not claming to have made a groundbreaking scientific discovery, and I may very well be wrong. But I do think that my thoughts makes sense.

I'm not challenging whether or not criminals could have acted differently. I pretty much agree about that.

I'm just saying that your point that "Everyone does something for profit" cannot be trusted because it cannot be tested. With every action imaginable, there is always a few ways a person can 'profit'. There's no way of testing it. That's like me presenting an empty cup & saying, "My cup was filled with water two minutes ago". How would someone ever verify this? It's not possible. Your idea that every action someone makes is for profit cannot be tested because there will always be a few ways to profit with every action. 



Jay520 said:

I'm not challenging whether or not criminals could have acted differently. I pretty much agree about that.

I'm just saying that your point that "Everyone does something for profit" cannot be trusted because it cannot be tested. With every action imaginable, there is always a few ways a person can 'profit'. There's no way of testing it. That's like me presenting an empty cup & saying, "My cup was filled with water two minutes ago". How would someone ever verify this? It's not possible. Your idea that every action someone makes is for profit cannot be tested because there will always be a few ways to profit with every action. 


I used the word profit because I found no better word to use in that context, and because it's simple. I think that humans are like companies always trying to do what is best for the company. Sometimes great short-term profits is the better option, while small long-term profits are better at other times. Sometimes you lose no matter what, but choose whatever results in the least amount of loss. Miscalculations happens frequently, but they are never on purpose.

And, more importantly, sometimes it may even be worth it to make risks.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:


I used the word profit because I found no better word to use in that context, and because it's simple. I think that humans are like companies always trying to do what is best for the company. Sometimes great short-term profits is the better option, while small long-term profits are better at other times. Sometimes you lose no matter what, but choose whatever results in the least amount of loss. Miscalculations happens frequently, but they are never on purpose.

And, more importantly, sometimes it may even be worth it to make risks.


I get that. I'm just saying that if a man did intentionally make a bad decision, we wouldn't know because there would always be some way that his decision gained profit.



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Jay520 said:

I get that. I'm just saying that if a man did intentionally make a bad decision, we wouldn't know because there would always be some way that his decision gained profit.


And I'm saying that it makes no sense at all for a company to make a loss on purpose. If it does, some of its employees clearly have some kind of issues.

Therefore, I think it's foolish to assume that criminals make bad decisions on purpose, instead of what the masses consider to be good decisions.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jay520 said:

I get that. I'm just saying that if a man did intentionally make a bad decision, we wouldn't know because there would always be some way that his decision gained profit.


And I'm saying that it makes no sense at all for a company to make a loss on purpose. If it does, some of its employees clearly have some kind of issues.

Therefore, I think it's foolish to assume that criminals make bad decisions on purpose, instead of what the masses consider to be good decisions.

What about not making profits purposefully? A very different question.



room414 said:

@kain_kusanagi 

Where did i say it was a disease? 

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Does that sound like taking back control? Why are you pretending you know what you're talking about?

Yes, you didn't say disease, I did. Alcohol addiction is widely considered a disease. I brought it up because you brought up the 12-Step program. It is my opinion that addiction is not a disease. The physical and psychological effects of substance abuse is a symptom, but not of a disease you have no power fight against. They are the effects of a failure to make the correct choices in life. Like I said, I chose to not drink and therefore can never become an alcoholic. I chose never to smoke and therefore I will never be asked to stand out in the cold to get a fix. I made my choices just like everyone else. But for some reason addicts like to believe that they are a victim of a disease instead of a product of their own bad decisions.

Now as for your 12-Step examples.

Yes it all sounds like taking back control. Asking God or higher power or anyone for help is a choice. Making a decision to turn to God is a choice. Asking God to help become a better person is a choice. All of it is taking control back from the addiction. It's not giving up free will to God, it's are giving oneself to God. Those are very different. God gave free will and asks us to do good.  Why are you pretending that everything is beyond control?

Besides, 12-Step programs have nothing to do with free will. Even if AA did believe we have no control over our lives, which it doesn't, it doesn't matter. AA or any organization that used the 12-Steps is not the authority of free will. You brought it up, I responded, but it doesn't really have anything to do with anything. Quoting an addict's program doesn't prove anything against free will.



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happydolphin said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

And I'm saying that it makes no sense at all for a company to make a loss on purpose. If it does, some of its employees clearly have some kind of issues.

Therefore, I think it's foolish to assume that criminals make bad decisions on purpose, instead of what the masses consider to be good decisions.

What about not making profits purposefully? A very different question.


If your purpose is to not make profit, then not making profit is your profit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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