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sethnintendo said:

I read most of the link that player provided which shows holes in a decent amount of what the documentary covered.  Also, I was the one that made the 9/11 was a conspiracy not a conspiracy theory thread (I believe they at least knew and let it happen but that is for another discussion). 

Seems like everyone has an agenda and that one must check all the facts if possible.  Problems is that the Bible and Christianity have about as much facts supporting it as the movie Zeitgeist.  I have no problem with someone believing in the religion of choice.  I tend to question everything but I should have done more research into the documentary before taking most of it for granted.

 I myself just believe in nature and what humans do to this planet isn't respecting the only place we can call home.  I know Christians are supposed to look out for nature but it seems like capitalism has made them turn a blind eye towards it.  Christians are basically taught that nature is god yet greed along with the end of the world mentality prevents most for actually giving a damn.  Most Christians believe that the resurrection will happen in their lifetime.  What kind of thinking is this?  This will only lead to exploitation because it doesn't really matter since they will all be gone soon.  The end of the world mentality bothers me most about Christianity.  Also, an afterlife that all non believers go to hell.  I don't care for that vision.  Divides it into a us vs them where there really just isn't a line between good and evil anymore.  Who is to say that all other followers of religion are damned to hell?  Christianity does

Thing is that the foundation of the Christian religion was founded through multiple generations of individuals who knew people who knew people, who knew people close to the events.  Those who build other conspiracy based theories that attempt to produce things radical end up doing such centuries removed from everything.  These individuals get traction with some, because those hearing it want to find something different.

In your issues you have disagreement with, you generally just have disagreement.  It is reduced to a preference thing, and you don't like what is heard.  I can agree with a number of things you have issue with also, and out of a Christian foundation.  A bulk of it is the American form of Christianity actually, which ends up believing the history of America is something penned by God, and ignores the excesses.  In this, you will find a number of people who end up with their time on Earth being demonic, while they expect to be raptured away, or they "go to heaven when they die" and they end up clearly missing specific commands you swear you know are associated with what Jesus said.

Bill Maher did a bit that touches on this (pardon me reposting what was in the other thread:



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spurgeonryan said:
As. Said in the other thread.

What happened to dinosaurs and unicorns. I went into better detail there.

Jurassic Park teaches you more about dinosaurs than the Bible.



sethnintendo said:
richardhutnik said:

As a critique of the Christian religion, Zeitgeist has been found to be a lot of nonsense:

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-02-25/

PERHAPS THE WORST ASPECT of “The Greatest Story Ever Told,” Part I of Peter Joseph’s Internet film, Zeitgeist, is that some of what it asserts is true. Unfortunately, this material is liberally — and sloppily — mixed with material that is only partially true and much that is plainly and simply bogus. Joseph’s main argument is that Jesus never existed and is in fact a mythical character based on earlier sun gods. He sees all the motifs and characters of the New Testament as coded astrological or solar references. The argument that Jesus was a mythical construct has been made before — for example by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy in their 1999 book, The Jesus Mysteries, though Freke and Gandy made their argument with a far greater level of scholarship. In reducing Jesus to a sun god, Joseph ignores — as Freke and Gandy did before him — the powerful current of messianic apocalypticism prevalent in first century Judea. The fact that there were references back to earlier dying and rising gods in the Christ myth can lend an air of spurious scholarship to Zeitgeist, as long as one ignores the equally important messianic myth and the fact that there is a viable basis for an actual historical Jesus. Joseph totally ignores the messianic/apocalyptic aspects of the New Testament writings and erroneously asserts that there is no evidence for a historical Jesus. I will return to this issue later. For now, let us consider Joseph’s solar deity argument.

 

Now, if you have need for your disbelieve to have its own mythos to justify it, then it is fine to go with Zeitgeist.  However, if you want to be factually accurate, you need to look elsewhere.  A problem with material like Zeitgeist is that it attempts to paint a very large scale conspiracy that is vulnerable at every single point it makes a large-scale claim, of being false.

"Joseph totally ignores the messianic/apocalyptic aspects of the New Testament writings and erroneously asserts that there is no evidence for a historical Jesus."

I assume this is the sentence I should be paying most attention to but I don't see anything in this that warrants the documentary false (I am having difficulty even understanding the paragraph fully) .  How is the documentary proven wrong by avoiding the New Testament apocalyptic end of times (if anything many religions and cultures viewed or discussed a possible end of times/rebirth, I'm thinking Hinduism for one since they believe the world has been destroyed/reborn multiple times)? 

Also, it was stated in the documentary that there were dozens of well known historians that lived in the area where Jesus would have roamed/lived.  He states not one of these historians recorded anything dealing with Jesus.  It wasn't until 100 A.D. or so later that Jesus was first brought up.

 

I also will add. Why does man always make up god when he can't understand something? One question of logic. If god is perfect, knows everything that has or will ever happen. Why would you even need a test(Gospel)? If you say he does need it, then he is not perfect. Perfection comes with high expectations. This is a major flaw in the story among many. It does not make Logical sense. Religion is about feelings, not common sense. It feels better to have a answer. It's also about fear because with out the fear of hell most wouldn't believe. This is the tool of brainwash. There are 4,000 religions in the world, Non are right in my opinion. God far surpaces the stories of man, if he exists.

The new testament was not put together until about 200 years after jesus. Before that it was a cult and succeeded because it didn't charge poor people. It was word of mouth and the time it was put together there was 1000's of stories. The rich that gave to the cause put it together and they became the bishops. It also only even seen the light of day because of Constantine. Go to your local field museum and learn about evolution. Evolution is a fact in the same way that our sun is the center of our solar system. People who deny are the same as the people who locked up Galileo Galilei. Intelligence is a issue in christianity and it's because it proves it wrong. 

 



God, or Gods is/are out there. I don't think its a matter of them having to be made up by people. I just think that this universe is too amazing to make itself. Something/someone had to help it along in some way.



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Andrespetmonkey said:
spurgeonryan said:
As. Said in the other thread.

What happened to dinosaurs and unicorns. I went into better detail there.

Jurassic Park teaches you more about dinosaurs than the Bible.

And in life, I am fairly sure there are a number of people who know a lot about dinosaurs, but have very poor lives, and aren't useful to people in much other areas.



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Moonhero said:
God, or Gods is/are out there. I don't think its a matter of them having to be made up by people. I just think that this universe is too amazing to make itself. Something/someone had to help it along in some way.

And the pantheist view is the universe IS God.



richardhutnik said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
spurgeonryan said:
As. Said in the other thread.

What happened to dinosaurs and unicorns. I went into better detail there.

Jurassic Park teaches you more about dinosaurs than the Bible.

And in life, I am fairly sure there are a number of people who know a lot about dinosaurs, but have very poor lives, and aren't useful to people in much other areas.

So what?

There may be people who know about dinosaurs AND can help people in other areas. Don't be silly.



Dinos died from large rocks from the sky or man made climate change. Something like that.



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spaceguy said:

 

I also will add. Why does man always make up god when he can't understand something? One question of logic. If god is perfect, knows everything that has or will ever happen. Why would you even need a test(Gospel)? If you say he does need it, then he is not perfect. Perfection comes with high expectations. This is a major flaw in the story among many. It does not make Logical sense. Religion is about feelings, not common sense. It feels better to have a answer. It's also about fear because with out the fear of hell most wouldn't believe. This is the tool of brainwash. There are 4,000 religions in the world, Non are right in my opinion. God far surpaces the stories of man, if he exists.

The new testament was not put together until about 200 years after jesus. Before that it was a cult and succeeded because it didn't charge poor people. It was word of mouth and the time it was put together there was 1000's of stories. The rich that gave to the cause put it together and they became the bishops. It also only even seen the light of day because of Constantine. Go to your local field museum and learn about evolution. Evolution is a fact in the same way that our sun is the center of our solar system. People who deny are the same as the people who locked up Galileo Galilei. Intelligence is a issue in christianity and it's because it proves it wrong. 

  

I could post a long answer here but I am just going to talk about one aspect for now. As far as why would we need to be tested I believe that the reason for that is free will. I think that it is hard for us to grasp how massive of a gift free will is to us, and how powerful it is. The way I look at it is if God wants to have followers and creations that love him and give him thanks he could do this a couple of different ways. First would be to force his creations to worship him. Second would be to give them the gift of free will, and let them decide. I know that I would prefer that my friends choose to love me over forcing them too. I don't mean to say that this is what God's reason is, it is just a way of understanding it.

I am Catholic, and Catholic's do not deny evolution. We view it as a possible way of creation. Evolution can exist with Creationism, infact Creationism provides an answer to where evolution started.

While there are a lot of different christianity religions, the only one that has survived two thousand years is the Catholic church. Our imperfections have done so much to ruin it from the inside yet it still stands. That helps me believe that a higher power is keeping it going.

Anyway I will check on this thread every now and then and I love talking about this so please reply! :)



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greymay said:
spaceguy said:
 

 

I also will add. Why does man always make up god when he can't understand something? One question of logic. If god is perfect, knows everything that has or will ever happen. Why would you even need a test(Gospel)? If you say he does need it, then he is not perfect. Perfection comes with high expectations. This is a major flaw in the story among many. It does not make Logical sense. Religion is about feelings, not common sense. It feels better to have a answer. It's also about fear because with out the fear of hell most wouldn't believe. This is the tool of brainwash. There are 4,000 religions in the world, Non are right in my opinion. God far surpaces the stories of man, if he exists.

The new testament was not put together until about 200 years after jesus. Before that it was a cult and succeeded because it didn't charge poor people. It was word of mouth and the time it was put together there was 1000's of stories. The rich that gave to the cause put it together and they became the bishops. It also only even seen the light of day because of Constantine. Go to your local field museum and learn about evolution. Evolution is a fact in the same way that our sun is the center of our solar system. People who deny are the same as the people who locked up Galileo Galilei. Intelligence is a issue in christianity and it's because it proves it wrong. 

  

I could post a long answer here but I am just going to talk about one aspect for now. As far as why would we need to be tested I believe that the reason for that is free will. I think that it is hard for us to grasp how massive of a gift free will is to us, and how powerful it is. The way I look at it is if God wants to have followers and creations that love him and give him thanks he could do this a couple of different ways. First would be to force his creations to worship him. Second would be to give them the gift of free will, and let them decide. I know that I would prefer that my friends choose to love me over forcing them too. I don't mean to say that this is what God's reason is, it is just a way of understanding it.

There is no free will. If your god controls everything, and everything that happens in the World is your god's will, we are made to choose what we eventually end up choosing. What option did Judas have when Jesus was put before him? Would Judas be a betrayer if your god wouldn't have put him in his way to begin with? How Jesus sacrifice could have been fulfilled if Judas betrayal would have rested in a true aleatory outcome that could or could not have happened?

When the creators of the Bible invented that story they got too inspired and ended up attributing characteristics of grandeur to that diety that ended up contradicting it all. Adam and Eve were put to a test with the forbidden fruit? What test was that when they were put into a situation by a supposedly all knowing god in which that god, as given the ability to know it all, knew the outcome of what would happen? Then that god comes asking what happened to Adam and Eve as if that god did not know what happen. Then that god blames them for doing something he knew they would do.



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