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Forums - Politics - Concept of Going to Heaven...

Slimebeast said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Bolded: I didn't say that. I said that people who are not taught how to act good are considered evil, since evil = lack of good.

Italics: Feel free to call me ignorant, arrogant and unpleasant. At least I know that I don't hate anyone for who they are, and that I sympathize with everyone's actions. Even if I strongly disagree with them.

You implied it by mentioning people's risk of ending up in hell and being described as evil. And even how you express it now, is flawed logic. Christianity doesn't condemn the ignorant, it condemns the truly wicked - namely people who despite knowing what is good choose the bad. And that can be a Christian person just as well as a non-Christian.

I don't call you ignorant but I admit that you genereally speaking come off a bit disrespectful in your argumentation and threads (it's not automatically bad though, some of us need to have that role). But most of all I wanted to make you and others (since this is a popular argument) aware of how cliché and unintellectual it is to use the "control tool" argument on religion, and I'd like to imagine you wouldn't want to make that impression around here.


I have never understood the bolded. Using that logic, worshipping God is something unnecessary that might as well be excluded. As long as you act like a good person, you will be rewarded once you die. You might as well hate God and some of His words (namly some of the crazy and ignorant stuff mentioned in the Bible) as long as you don't hurt anybody and actually care for others. And yet, some other people say that worshipping God is essential to your salvation? (I know you are not one of those)

As for the rest, I wouldn't want to make that impression unless I have to. What I want is for everyone to stop all kinds of hate. My religious threads are mainly meant to stop people from using religious arguments to prevent the happiness of others, and to stop people from using such arguments to justify hate (which ironically wouldn't be necessary if they actually read the part of the Bible where hate is condemned). And then there is my recent non-religious thread (where I defended criminals) whose purpose was to stop hate from both religious people and atheists.



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Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here.

The Bible clearly states that there is an afterlife which is based on your actions on Earth.


He is saying that the concept of an afterlife is flawed. God should not say "Do good because it is the way to heaven." God should say, "Do good because it is the right thing to do." With the existence of heaven, people will act good because they want a reward, not necessarily because they are of good character.

which reminds me of a quote someone had in their signature a while back:

"A man who does good because of fear of going to Hell is both a coward and is of weak character. A person who does good because he knows it is the right thing to do. That is the man I want to be" or something like that.

God, as Jesus, does clearly say so. Here's an example:

8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”

9And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observec your own traditions! 10For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’d and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’e 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

He's basically saying that people are putting human rules above doing things for others, which is not right because rather doing things for others is right, especially your father and mother.

Here's another example:

 

1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

3He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that onea greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’b you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

9Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”

11He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

He's basically saying that his commandment is more correct than the pharisees because a man is precious and is worthy of love and care (much more so than a sheep).



happydolphin said:
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here.

The Bible clearly states that there is an afterlife which is based on your actions on Earth.


He is saying that the concept of an afterlife is flawed. God should not say "Do good because it is the way to heaven." God should say, "Do good because it is the right thing to do." With the existence of heaven, people will act good because they want a reward, not necessarily because they are of good character.

which reminds me of a quote someone had in their signature a while back:

"A man who does good because of fear of going to Hell is both a coward and is of weak character. A person who does good because he knows it is the right thing to do. That is the man I want to be" or something like that.

God, as Jesus, does clearly say so. Here's an example:

8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”

9And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observec your own traditions! 10For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’d and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’e 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

He's basically saying that people are putting human rules above doing things for others, which is not right because rather doing things for others is right, especially your father and mother.

Here's another example:

 

1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

3He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that onea greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’b you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

9Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”

11He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

He's basically saying that his commandment is more correct than the pharisees because a man is precious and is worthy of love and care (much more so than a sheep).



I don't think so since the OP uses the word 'bribe' so much.

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
What I want is for everyone to stop all kinds of hate. My religious threads are mainly meant to stop people from using religious arguments to prevent the happiness of others, and to stop people from using such arguments to justify hate (which ironically wouldn't be necessary if they actually read the part of the Bible where hate is condemned).


I rarely see people using religion to justify hate on this website. The only users I've seen doing this belong to a very tiny group of extremists. But you must remember, there will he extremists from every position. They're not going to go away. I'd say we are lucky they are as scarce as they are.

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Slimebeast said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Bolded: I didn't say that. I said that people who are not taught how to act good are considered evil, since evil = lack of good.

Italics: Feel free to call me ignorant, arrogant and unpleasant. At least I know that I don't hate anyone for who they are, and that I sympathize with everyone's actions. Even if I strongly disagree with them.

You implied it by mentioning people's risk of ending up in hell and being described as evil. And even how you express it now, is flawed logic. Christianity doesn't condemn the ignorant, it condemns the truly wicked - namely people who despite knowing what is good choose the bad. And that can be a Christian person just as well as a non-Christian.

I don't call you ignorant but I admit that you genereally speaking come off a bit disrespectful in your argumentation and threads (it's not automatically bad though, some of us need to have that role). But most of all I wanted to make you and others (since this is a popular argument) aware of how cliché and unintellectual it is to use the "control tool" argument on religion, and I'd like to imagine you wouldn't want to make that impression around here.


I have never understood the bolded. Using that logic, worshipping God is something unnecessary that might as well be excluded. As long as you act like a good person, you will be rewarded once you die. You might as well hate God and some of His words (namly some of the crazy and ignorant stuff mentioned in the Bible) as long as you don't hurt anybody and actually care for others. And yet, some other people say that worshipping God is essential to your salvation? (I know you are not one of those)

As for the rest, I wouldn't want to make that impression unless I have to. What I want is for everyone to stop all kinds of hate. My religious threads are mainly meant to stop people from using religious arguments to prevent the happiness of others, and to stop people from using such arguments to justify hate (which ironically wouldn't be necessary if they actually read the part of the Bible where hate is condemned). And then there is my recent non-religious thread (where I defended criminals) whose purpose was to stop hate from both religious people and atheists.

No, worshipping God is everything. I do want to say I am actually one of those people who say that worshipping God is essential to salvation, depending on how you define "worship" of course. Worship through your heart or through good works or both? Worship in its core could mean just to acknowledge that God rules and my fate depends on God's grace. So in that sense worshipping God is essential for salvation.

But when it comes to worship as in daily rituals and good works, now that's a topic of huge discussion throughout Church history, and Luther was the big moment in Church history to make clear again what salvation ultimately consists of.

As for your threads, that hate and hostility goes both ways though - historically it's been very much from the religious towards the unbelievers, but nowadays it's been just as much hostility and disrespect from atheists towards the religious. I would argue the hate is stronger from non-religious towards the religious than vice versa if you break it down to the 20th Century, with everything from state persecution toward religios by Stalin and Mao to modern day bullies and even teachers in school who ridicule you if you are religious.

Now I know this is an international forum, but knowing you are a Swede it feels extra strange to see a person who feels his mission is to tear down the  destructive influences of Christianity, knowing he lives in such a secular country like Sweden. Christianity really is no problem here.



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Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
What I want is for everyone to stop all kinds of hate. My religious threads are mainly meant to stop people from using religious arguments to prevent the happiness of others, and to stop people from using such arguments to justify hate (which ironically wouldn't be necessary if they actually read the part of the Bible where hate is condemned).

 



I rarely see people using religion to justify hate on this website. The only users I've seen doing this belong to a very tiny group of extremists. But you must remember, there will he extremists from every position. They're not going to go away. I'd say we are lucky they are as scarce as they are.

Me neither, but I wouldn't expect those people to use this site to express their opinions. There are probably some lurkers who need to see my stuff though.

But even if my target group is very small on this site, the size is not what matters.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
What I want is for everyone to stop all kinds of hate. My religious threads are mainly meant to stop people from using religious arguments to prevent the happiness of others, and to stop people from using such arguments to justify hate (which ironically wouldn't be necessary if they actually read the part of the Bible where hate is condemned).

 



I rarely see people using religion to justify hate on this website. The only users I've seen doing this belong to a very tiny group of extremists. But you must remember, there will he extremists from every position. They're not going to go away. I'd say we are lucky they are as scarce as they are.

Me neither, but I wouldn't expect those people to use this site to express their opinions. There are probably some lurkers who need to see my stuff though.

But even if my target group is very small on this site, the size is not what matters.



You're right. Just because we haven't seen these people, doesn't mean they don't exist. We have no evidence of their existence, true. But we also have no evidence that they don't exist. Therefore they could exist, which means they probably do exist...lurking, therefore action is definitely necessary just in case. We're dealing with an unknown unknown in this case..



I always wonder what people have in their minds when they make threads like this.

I can only imagine it either comes down to trolling or insecurity.

Because it's not like the opinion is some new amazing revelation nobody has thought up before... and it's not an argument in which debate will really be possible... considering generally those who do believe in a god strongly don't seem to so much have faith so much as experience which can't be communicated through words... and people otherwise can't really argue against what someone personally experienced.

So.... really, the only purpose is to see a long shouting match (and probably get some good points out of it) or to feel validated by the side of it that agrees with you.



mrstickball said:
Slimebeast said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here.

The Bible clearly states that there is an afterlife which is based on your actions on Earth.


He is saying that the concept of an afterlife is flawed. God should not say "Do good because it is the way to heaven." God should say, "Do good because it is the right thing to do." With the existence of heaven, people will act good because they want a reward, not necessarily because they are of good character.

which reminds me of a quote someone had in their signature a while back:

"A man who does good because of fear of going to Hell is both a coward and is of weak character. A person who does good because he knows it is the right thing to do. That is the man I want to be" or something like that.

Well, he is not the first one.

*cough*

People are not only supposed to teach their fellow men to act good towards each other, but it is their duty, as enlightened beings, to spread the (religious) definition of "good". This should mean that those who are never exposed to this knowledge could not possibly know how to act, and therefore should not end up in hell under any circumstances, but for some reason religious people tend to call them evil. They say that their free will put them in that situation when, in fact, their will and opinion is entirely based on what they know and how they are tought (by sensory input, which they have no control over) to use that knowledge.

People always act because they want a reward. Otherwise, acting would be pointless. People also always try reach the greatest amount of rewards, and nothing can change that. They have a will, which is based on previous experiences that are set in stone, and their actions will always be dependant on their will.

The sole purpose of a heaven and hell is to control that will.

It amazes me how primitive your view is of Christianity, you having been brought up in a Christian home.

First of all, Christianity doesn't say that the  people who have never have heard the Gospel automatically go to hell.

Second, this myth about religion being designed as a tool for control is quite ridicilous and doesn't hold up to scrutiny, and is also historically and sociologically a weak theory. I have discovered that typically it's an argument used by ignorant, arrogant and unpleasant individuals.


It'd be humorous if Christianity was created in order to control people. Worked out pretty bad for Jesus and everyone that followed him for about 300 years.

Well, you could make an arguement that the formation of the bible and forming of the Catholic Church was to control people.  Though I imagine that's why the 300 years disclaimer is put it.



Also, as far as I can tell... Christianity isn't about following God's law.

It's about realizing man can't fully follow god's law being sinful and less then perfect... and can obtain salvation by admitting ones faults and wishing to be a better person or at least feeling bad for ones misdeeds.

Under christian dogma as I understand it, Hitler could be in heaven right now if he realized what he did was wrong and had regrets.