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Forums - Gaming Discussion - The case against making games able to be owned (pay once for unlimited usage)

UnitSmiley said:
richardhutnik said:
KungKras said:
All I can do in these discussions is to ask. What separates games from comic books, music CD's, books, and so on. Why should games be any different?

It all depends on the lobby involved and what laws they pass.  Libraries aren't allow to lend out computer software, but the can do video games.  If you look at it now, there is active supporters, on here, who actively agree with ending used game sales.  Any industry will push and push and push to get what it wants.  The would actively rather do away completely with even ownership, if they could and switch to a subscription model.  Look at what Sony pushes, with Playstation Plus.  There is a strong push also for MMOs, because that means a steady stream of income to for those making software.


Just to adress your bold. There is no "strong push" for a subscription fee in MMOs. In fact, it's the very opposite. Many MMOs are switching to (and even launching with) a F2P model. Many players chose to spend a lot of cash for the ingame cashop (vanity items, consumables ect).  Mmos like DCUO and LOTRO have gained a HUGE number of players and have wildly increased profit gained since becoming F2P. One of the most anticipated AAA mmos on the verge of releasing is Guild Wars 2, which will be F2P.

Two factors are at work here (well more than two, but I will add this second to here).  There is the desire of companies to push people into a subscription model, so they get an ongoing regular revenue stream, and not the pay once after it gets out the door, and people then own a license for content where they can transfer it.  The other factor is the market reality of too much content, which is pushing PC gaming into a place, based on what you had with app costs, where it is hard to get anyone to pay for anything.  Between these two realities, you do see MMOs being pushed into a free model, where once they get you hooked, you then either get micropayment'd to death, or you then sign up for a subscription.  These two realities are at work.  In the case where the platform is controlled really tight, like with consoles, companies will be pushing a subscription model, to get regular revenue.  When faced with an open platform, like the Internet, they are forced to go micropayment, and have players play later.

In both cases, the subscription and FP2 now, the idea is to get players into a place where you keep extracting money from them on an ongoing basis so they keep paying to play, and you keep you developers funded.  Whatever they charge will be whatever they can get away with and what the market can bear.



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richardhutnik said:
UnitSmiley said:
richardhutnik said:
KungKras said:
All I can do in these discussions is to ask. What separates games from comic books, music CD's, books, and so on. Why should games be any different?

It all depends on the lobby involved and what laws they pass.  Libraries aren't allow to lend out computer software, but the can do video games.  If you look at it now, there is active supporters, on here, who actively agree with ending used game sales.  Any industry will push and push and push to get what it wants.  The would actively rather do away completely with even ownership, if they could and switch to a subscription model.  Look at what Sony pushes, with Playstation Plus.  There is a strong push also for MMOs, because that means a steady stream of income to for those making software.


Just to adress your bold. There is no "strong push" for a subscription fee in MMOs. In fact, it's the very opposite. Many MMOs are switching to (and even launching with) a F2P model. Many players chose to spend a lot of cash for the ingame cashop (vanity items, consumables ect).  Mmos like DCUO and LOTRO have gained a HUGE number of players and have wildly increased profit gained since becoming F2P. One of the most anticipated AAA mmos on the verge of releasing is Guild Wars 2, which will be F2P.

Two factors are at work here (well more than two, but I will add this second to here).  There is the desire of companies to push people into a subscription model, so they get an ongoing regular revenue stream, and not the pay once after it gets out the door, and people then own a license for content where they can transfer it.  The other factor is the market reality of too much content, which is pushing PC gaming into a place, based on what you had with app costs, where it is hard to get anyone to pay for anything.  Between these two realities, you do see MMOs being pushed into a free model, where once they get you hooked, you then either get micropayment'd to death, or you then sign up for a subscription.  These two realities are at work.  In the case where the platform is controlled really tight, like with consoles, companies will be pushing a subscription model, to get regular revenue.  When faced with an open platform, like the Internet, they are forced to go micropayment, and have players play later.

In both cases, the subscription and FP2 now, the idea is to get players into a place where you keep extracting money from them on an ongoing basis so they keep paying to play, and you keep you developers funded.  Whatever they charge will be whatever they can get away with and what the market can bear.

Ah I see, so you are saying that the console market and pc markets are different. Which means that the method of exctacting money from the player may differ, but that the goal is still the same.

But even with the consoles. Nintendos online (however basic it is) is free. Sonys online is free (not REQUIRED to have PS+ to play games online) and only Microsofts online is requiring the player to pay to be able to play games online.

I agree that markets between PC and consoles may be slightly different, but most MMOs are going F2P (with the option of spending cash on microtransactions, it isn't required) and 2/3 consoles online services are also F2P. I'd say that the industry as a whole (games in general) are moving towards a F2P platform and any subscription fee added wouldn't be a necessity, but rather paying for "extra" services much like PS+



Why did you have to mix sarcasm in with your serious bit of games being a license?

Anyway games are exactly like movies, music, and other creative works. If one of these industries tries something, expect the others to follow. However this also shows games will never be sold by the minute. No way would the movie industry be ok with this so we can assume the game industry is more or less the same.



UnitSmiley said:
richardhutnik said:

Two factors are at work here (well more than two, but I will add this second to here).  There is the desire of companies to push people into a subscription model, so they get an ongoing regular revenue stream, and not the pay once after it gets out the door, and people then own a license for content where they can transfer it.  The other factor is the market reality of too much content, which is pushing PC gaming into a place, based on what you had with app costs, where it is hard to get anyone to pay for anything.  Between these two realities, you do see MMOs being pushed into a free model, where once they get you hooked, you then either get micropayment'd to death, or you then sign up for a subscription.  These two realities are at work.  In the case where the platform is controlled really tight, like with consoles, companies will be pushing a subscription model, to get regular revenue.  When faced with an open platform, like the Internet, they are forced to go micropayment, and have players play later.

In both cases, the subscription and FP2 now, the idea is to get players into a place where you keep extracting money from them on an ongoing basis so they keep paying to play, and you keep you developers funded.  Whatever they charge will be whatever they can get away with and what the market can bear.

Ah I see, so you are saying that the console market and pc markets are different. Which means that the method of exctacting money from the player may differ, but that the goal is still the same.

But even with the consoles. Nintendos online (however basic it is) is free. Sonys online is free (not REQUIRED to have PS+ to play games online) and only Microsofts online is requiring the player to pay to be able to play games online.

I agree that markets between PC and consoles may be slightly different, but most MMOs are going F2P (with the option of spending cash on microtransactions, it isn't required) and 2/3 consoles online services are also F2P. I'd say that the industry as a whole (games in general) are moving towards a F2P platform and any subscription fee added wouldn't be a necessity, but rather paying for "extra" services much like PS+

An industry is such they will push for as much as the market can bear, and get people to buy into it.  Market realities force them to do differently, and find end arounds.  You are going to see, for example, Microsoft very likely getting the XBox platform to be their platform for gaming on the PC and still try to get people to have to sign up for XBox LIve Gold to play. The makers of content want to get the ongoing coin, and revenues.  They will fight wherever they can to lock things down.  It all depends on hwo much or little control they have over the market.  F2P is what the market forces them into, not what they want.  Heck they certainly don't want it.  As a game designer, I don't want it either, but market dictates this.  And in light of the market, you try to make things work.

The original post goes back to where the industry wants to push things, and will, if they can get away with it.  



JoeTheBro said:
Why did you have to mix sarcasm in with your serious bit of games being a license?

Anyway games are exactly like movies, music, and other creative works. If one of these industries tries something, expect the others to follow. However this also shows games will never be sold by the minute. No way would the movie industry be ok with this so we can assume the game industry is more or less the same.

The game being a license (all software is) was just there to clarify.  It was a side note from the original post.  From a practical standpoint, the way people have games now, they own it.  Legally, it is a license and it can change.  It is just now that people think they own.  

My sarcasm only comes out from my thought on what I was writing here, which I don't agree with.  I wrote it from the opinion of the industry, trends i am seeing now on where it has gone beyond merely opposing piracy to actually cheering the industry on for blocking resale of licenses to software people don't own, and hatred of Gamestop for facilitating this.  This has been a shift in opinion here.  In regards to game rentals, the videogame industry, like the movie industry fought against they.  They actually won a court case which forbad the likes of video rental stores from including copies of game manuals.  They didn't like it.  They have wanted everyone to buy what they have, even to try it.  They don't want any use uncompensated.  But, once they locked down, they will then push to continue to get money for what they produce.  You see DLC being pushed, and season passes, because they want to continue to get paid for what they have.  This is the motivation and the thinking.

So, sarcasm here underscores what is going on, so thus I used sarcasm.



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What if I just said okay to this, and for example PS4 goes subscription style. PS4's entire library available digitally for a monthly fee. You don't want a subscription, buy physical games. Sony has already said they are keeping physical medium for PS4 but that doesn't mean they won't have a full digital option and its a good idea to keep blu-ray/dvd capabilities in their console.

Gaming is now Netflix. I don't see a problem. In fact with the new push with PS Plus, I don't see how Plus will transition with a new console unless it takes this route, lest they decide to delay most Plus game benefits like they are with Vita because all the games are so new it would be hard to give them away for $4.17 a month. It would be interesting to see this as an option for next gen. By creating a more convenient means of accessing games will cut into the used/rental/piracy markets.



Before the PS3 everyone was nice to me :(

Chark said:
What if I just said okay to this, and for example PS4 goes subscription style. PS4's entire library available digitally for a monthly fee. You don't want a subscription, buy physical games. Sony has already said they are keeping physical medium for PS4 but that doesn't mean they won't have a full digital option and its a good idea to keep blu-ray/dvd capabilities in their console.

Gaming is now Netflix. I don't see a problem. In fact with the new push with PS Plus, I don't see how Plus will transition with a new console unless it takes this route, lest they decide to delay most Plus game benefits like they are with Vita because all the games are so new it would be hard to give them away for $4.17 a month. It would be interesting to see this as an option for next gen. By creating a more convenient means of accessing games will cut into the used/rental/piracy markets.

Once the used and third-party rental markets are eliminated look for prices to start to go up, particularly if you get locked into a single platform.  

You will also have them ALWAYS adding a bit of multiplayer required to games, to justify doing things (think of Mass Effect 3 as an example of the future).  Then they proceed to eventually pull the plug on the server and make you put more money down for a game, if they do this.  Or they do a version of Elite, where you get the latest disk.  Well, this i assuming in the next 10 years they still have disks.  They go Onlive approach and cloud, say goodbye to disks.  Once the physical medium is gone, and all digital, they the subscription model will increase even more.  The market will end up being viable enough that they won't care the 20% upset storm off.