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Forums - Politics - I decided that I don't get into nearly enough debates with strangers.

Rath said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Rath said:

Well I exist on the completely opposite side of the economic spectrum from you.

I believe in a strong public sector and a regulated market.

In fact I really don't get the "Free market or serfdom" thing - a truly free market is what leads to essential serfdom. In a completely free market workers do not have rights. While skilled workers will still be treated well the unskilled and semi-skilled workers would be paid well below living wages, have to work extremely long hours and have no recourse in terms of working conditions

In terms of supply and demand, unskilled and semi-skilled workers have a high supply and their 'price' is being kept artificially high by the government. It is only through government intervention and through the intervention of unions (which are protected by the government) that workers rights exist.

"Free markets" doesn't mean "business-oriented markets". The principles of a free market is very much based on the rights of the individuals. In a free market, individuals have the right to assembly, and so the right to unionize. This right would be protected by the Government. Unions, however, cannot force themselves upon an individual. In many states, you can not legally enter a job without becoming a member of a union, this is an infringement of rights.

I don't understand this notion that businesses will be sticking their workers in the meat grinder if the Government/unions weren't there to protect them. Historically speaking, the USA has had the lowest union participation rate, and the lowest amount of Government intervention. Also, historically speaking, the USA has enjoyed the highest level of worker incomes and other compensations.

Yes but the government limits how a company can deal with unions. It is not legal, for example, to fire employees for belonging to a union, nor is it legal to fire employees on strike. Or at least I think that's the case, I'm not an expert on US employement law =P

The reason employement laws have passed is purely because of historic abuse by corporations of workers. They hired child workers, child labour laws were passed. They paid ridiculously low amounts of money, minimum wage laws were passed. They abused the inequality of bargaining power between employer and employee, union laws were passed. They fired at whim, laws on unfair dismissal were passed. They worked people for ridiculously long hours, maximum working hours were passed. They worked in unsafe or unhealthy conditions, health and safety laws were passed.

Historically everything was done in reaction to abuse by employers, removing the government interference that protects employees would almost certainly mean reverting to abuse of employees by employers again.

Right. The point where free market theories start to fall apart is the assumption of the mobility of labor that just isn't there, and has only gotten worse as even the semi-skilled labor force has become more specialized.



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Well, I for one don't think you should get into arguments with strangers at all. What say you, sir?!



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Rath said:

Yes but the government limits how a company can deal with unions. It is not legal, for example, to fire employees for belonging to a union, nor is it legal to fire employees on strike. Or at least I think that's the case, I'm not an expert on US employement law =P

The reason employement laws have passed is purely because of historic abuse by corporations of workers. They hired child workers, child labour laws were passed. They paid ridiculously low amounts of money, minimum wage laws were passed. They abused the inequality of bargaining power between employer and employee, union laws were passed. They fired at whim, laws on unfair dismissal were passed. They worked people for ridiculously long hours, maximum working hours were passed. They worked in unsafe or unhealthy conditions, health and safety laws were passed.

Historically everything was done in reaction to abuse by employers, removing the government interference that protects employees would almost certainly mean reverting to abuse of employees by employers again.


I don't want to tackle this point directly (I'm sure you've heard the arguments a million times before, how am I going to convince you now?). But, I do want to take a side-spin based on one of your points.

Child labour laws.

Do you think that child labour laws, on their own, would stop child labour? If we went into a country where child labour was rife... say, Burundi. And we somehow convinced the Government that child labour was bad, and that they should ban it, that the result of this would be positive? Because I don't. In my mind 1 of 3 things will happen:

1 - People would ignore the laws.
2 - Children would get involved in much worse things - working in scrap heaps, prostitution, drugs, etc.
3 - Families would starve.

In these countries, the income from child labour can bring in around 1/4 to 1/3 of the family's income. By banning the children from working, the families will lose this income. At the levels of income that these people are on, a drop like that doesn't mean giving up the family vacation, or dipping into the savings. It means having to choose between clothes or food.

Children have laboured since... well, forever. And we're not talking factory jobs, or whatever. Children, from as young as they were able to, have, throughout history, worked from dawn till dusk, seven days a week, until their death's in hard, break-baking, agricultural jobs. It was only through the industrial revolution that this was able to change.

Through the industrial revolution, the industrial capacity of the economies increased that the price of basic goods and services dropped dramatically. As a result, incomes stretched futher and further, and fewer and fewer families needed to put their children into work to pay for their necessities.

By the time the child labour laws had come in, child labour had already decreased from 100% down to a tiny fraction of that. When those laws came in, what did it do? It reduced the incomes of those families who were still on such a low income that they had to keep their children in labour - despite all the societal pressures against them.

Did this really improve the lives of those few families? Well, that's up for debate. But the point still stands, the free markets created the environment in which it was feasible to end child labour. It's not the case that child labour was eliminated despite the free market.

Most of this is credited to Tom Woods, who I have learned much from.



thekitchensink said:
Well, I for one don't think you should get into arguments with strangers at all. What say you, sir?!


I'd say them's fightin' words!



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