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Forums - General Discussion - The Abrahamic Religions make No Sense

Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 on 13 May 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
TheProphet said:
Yes, the question of omnipotence vs free will has challenged our best minds for centuries. I am sure there will be no end to this debate. And it will certainly not have an impact on whether people believe in God or not. There is far to much scientific evidence of design making the free will argument just a minor philosophical curiosity.

However, on this subject I would like to make a couple of points. God created man in His own image. That means that man has the same free will that God does. That means that man can make free decisions independent of what God may want. It is completely up to us what we decide. An almighty God can do anything. So therefore an almighty God could create beings with free will he could not predict. He would not be almighty if He couldn't make a being with free will would He.

To support this argument I would just ask you to read the story of Noah's flood. Obviously the people of earth were behaving badly and of no use to God so he started over again with His creation, taking the best of the best. This story clearly indicates the humanity has a free will to reject virtue and God, but at a price. It also shows that God does not necessarily know how things will turn out otherwise he would not have to clean the slate and start over.


You are actually wrong about the bolded. That would be like saying "God can create a rock that is so heavy that He cannot lift it" (as mentioned earlier in this thread).

And backing up your argument with a story (which is even considered an actual story rather than history by many believers) does not really support your point.

Rational thinking of a Three dimentional being. 

Lets say God Indeed created a rock. A rock that he cannot "Lift". If you define a rock, it could be made out of gravel? sediments? cobblestone? sandstone?

If you define "Lift". Lift is a Three dimentional force that can be exerted by any Three dimentional being. Im lifting my fingers, Im lifting my own hands using the muscles of my arm. 

However, the fact remains that God exists on multiple dimentions. 

For example: 

I drew a two dimentional rock on a paper. I labelled the rock Weight = Infinity.

I drew a second frame that the rock with infinite mass was lifted off the ground. 

___

 

Easy, I have used a kind of Three dimentional force to lift an impossibly heavy object in a two dimentional world. This makes me a higher being. And this is how God can create "anything" on our world. On our three dimentional world. 



Yay!!!

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Rath on 13 May 2012
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
TheProphet said:
Yes, the question of omnipotence vs free will has challenged our best minds for centuries. I am sure there will be no end to this debate. And it will certainly not have an impact on whether people believe in God or not. There is far to much scientific evidence of design making the free will argument just a minor philosophical curiosity.

However, on this subject I would like to make a couple of points. God created man in His own image. That means that man has the same free will that God does. That means that man can make free decisions independent of what God may want. It is completely up to us what we decide. An almighty God can do anything. So therefore an almighty God could create beings with free will he could not predict. He would not be almighty if He couldn't make a being with free will would He.

To support this argument I would just ask you to read the story of Noah's flood. Obviously the people of earth were behaving badly and of no use to God so he started over again with His creation, taking the best of the best. This story clearly indicates the humanity has a free will to reject virtue and God, but at a price. It also shows that God does not necessarily know how things will turn out otherwise he would not have to clean the slate and start over.


You are actually wrong about the bolded. That would be like saying "God can create a rock that is so heavy that He cannot lift it" (as mentioned earlier in this thread).

And backing up your argument with a story (which is even considered an actual story rather than history by many believers) does not really support your point.

Rational thinking of a Three dimentional being. 

Lets say God Indeed created a rock. A rock that he cannot "Lift". If you define a rock, it could be made out of gravel? sediments? cobblestone? sandstone?

If you define "Lift". Lift is a Three dimentional force that can be exerted by any Three dimentional being. Im lifting my fingers, Im lifting my own hands using the muscles of my arm. 

However, the fact remains that God exists on multiple dimentions. 

For example: 

I drew a two dimentional rock on a paper. I labelled the rock Weight = Infinity.

I drew a second frame that the rock with infinite mass was lifted off the ground. 

___

 

Easy, I have used a kind of Three dimentional force to lift an impossibly heavy object in a two dimentional world. This makes me a higher being. And this is how God can create "anything" on our world. On our three dimentional world. 

Your proof (which I don't think is correct anyway) misses the point of that question. The point is 'Can an omnipotent being place a limit on its own power?'



Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 on 13 May 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Bolded: So, a crack addict who also drinks a lot should be allowed to raise kids? Really? I would feel very sorry for those kids then.

Underlined: God saw it happen though, and he never did anything to stop it. He let the kid grow up in terrible conditions despite knowing how the mother would choose to raise it.

God is responsible for that kid's misery, no matter how you twist it.


wait... so you mean God should interferre on everything that we do? So what? You expect us to live in a utopia where everyone is perfectly healthy, everyone is a good huy, good people come first?

You dont understand that the bible states that Humans once lived in an ever perfect in earth(which defines "Utopia"). It s called "Eden". God gave us the FREE WILL even back then. But who chose to eat that apple? Not God? Not the devil? (Influenced but DID NOT make the descision). But the humans. 

Still, God created the humans and the free will. He could predict how we would use it before giving it to us, thus He sent us to a world of pain on purpose.

 

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Our fate is in God's hands.

Indeed.


No, God created humans. But gave us the ability of free will. As you have seen at my OP. Free will and the almighty God can co-exist. At the bottom of the line, It is US who made the final descisions. God didnt send us on a world of pain. It is us and our ancestors who sent us on a world of pain. 

God knew that by giving us free will that we could end up on a distopia or a utopia. And funily enough, we ended up on a world of both. 



Yay!!!

IIIIITHE1IIIII on 13 May 2012
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Still, God created the humans and the free will. He could predict how we would use it before giving it to us, thus He sent us to a world of pain on purpose.


No, God created humans. But gave us the ability of free will. As you have seen at my OP. Free will and the almighty God can co-exist. At the bottom of the line, It is US who made the final descisions. God didnt send us on a world of pain. It is us and our ancestors who sent us on a world of pain. 

God knew that by giving us free will that we could end up on a distopia or a utopia. And funily enough, we ended up on a world of both. 

There is your same problem again. He didn't know that it could happen; He knew exactly how it would happen. God doesn't go "Oh no, they didn't!" every time someone makes a decision. He has predicted them all.



Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 on 13 May 2012
Rath said:
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
TheProphet said:
Yes, the question of omnipotence vs free will has challenged our best minds for centuries. I am sure there will be no end to this debate. And it will certainly not have an impact on whether people believe in God or not. There is far to much scientific evidence of design making the free will argument just a minor philosophical curiosity.

However, on this subject I would like to make a couple of points. God created man in His own image. That means that man has the same free will that God does. That means that man can make free decisions independent of what God may want. It is completely up to us what we decide. An almighty God can do anything. So therefore an almighty God could create beings with free will he could not predict. He would not be almighty if He couldn't make a being with free will would He.

To support this argument I would just ask you to read the story of Noah's flood. Obviously the people of earth were behaving badly and of no use to God so he started over again with His creation, taking the best of the best. This story clearly indicates the humanity has a free will to reject virtue and God, but at a price. It also shows that God does not necessarily know how things will turn out otherwise he would not have to clean the slate and start over.


You are actually wrong about the bolded. That would be like saying "God can create a rock that is so heavy that He cannot lift it" (as mentioned earlier in this thread).

And backing up your argument with a story (which is even considered an actual story rather than history by many believers) does not really support your point.

Rational thinking of a Three dimentional being. 

Lets say God Indeed created a rock. A rock that he cannot "Lift". If you define a rock, it could be made out of gravel? sediments? cobblestone? sandstone?

If you define "Lift". Lift is a Three dimentional force that can be exerted by any Three dimentional being. Im lifting my fingers, Im lifting my own hands using the muscles of my arm. 

However, the fact remains that God exists on multiple dimentions. 

For example: 

I drew a two dimentional rock on a paper. I labelled the rock Weight = Infinity.

I drew a second frame that the rock with infinite mass was lifted off the ground. 

___

 

Easy, I have used a kind of Three dimentional force to lift an impossibly heavy object in a two dimentional world. This makes me a higher being. And this is how God can create "anything" on our world. On our three dimentional world. 

Your proof (which I don't think is correct anyway) misses the point of that question. The point is 'Can an omnipotent being place a limit on its own power?'


Possibly. However, that omnipotent being can choose if it wants to control its power or not. 

My "Proof" was not a proof.

Its a representation that explains how God can control everything (If he chooses to)



Yay!!!

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Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 on 13 May 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Still, God created the humans and the free will. He could predict how we would use it before giving it to us, thus He sent us to a world of pain on purpose.


No, God created humans. But gave us the ability of free will. As you have seen at my OP. Free will and the almighty God can co-exist. At the bottom of the line, It is US who made the final descisions. God didnt send us on a world of pain. It is us and our ancestors who sent us on a world of pain. 

God knew that by giving us free will that we could end up on a distopia or a utopia. And funily enough, we ended up on a world of both. 

There is your same problem again. He didn't know that it could happen; He knew exactly how it would happen. God doesn't go "Oh no, they didn't!" every time someone makes a decision. He has predicted them all.


Yes he has predicted them all but your implying that our free will doesnt exists. In which, according to my OP has been proven wrong. 



Yay!!!

Rath on 13 May 2012
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
Rath said:

Your proof (which I don't think is correct anyway) misses the point of that question. The point is 'Can an omnipotent being place a limit on its own power?'


Possibly. However, that omnipotent being can choose if it wants to control its power or not. 

My "Proof" was not a proof.

Its a representation that explains how God can control everything (If he chooses to)

The point is that if an omnipotent being can limit its own power then it loses omnipotence - if it can not limit its own power it never had omnipotence. As such omnipotence is paradoxical.



Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 on 13 May 2012
Rath said:
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:

Possibly. However, that omnipotent being can choose if it wants to control its power or not. 

My "Proof" was not a proof.

Its a representation that explains how God can control everything (If he chooses to)

The point is that if an omnipotent being can limit its own power then it loses omnipotence - if it can not limit its own power it never had omnipotence. As such omnipotence is paradoxical.


It can but does it choose to?

The being then retains the title of omnipotence.



Yay!!!

Rath on 13 May 2012
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
Rath said:
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:

Possibly. However, that omnipotent being can choose if it wants to control its power or not. 

My "Proof" was not a proof.

Its a representation that explains how God can control everything (If he chooses to)

The point is that if an omnipotent being can limit its own power then it loses omnipotence - if it can not limit its own power it never had omnipotence. As such omnipotence is paradoxical.


It can but does it choose to?

The being then retains the title of omnipotence.


If omnipotence can be removed by a choice then it isn't omnipotence.



Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 on 13 May 2012
Rath said:
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
Rath said:
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:

Possibly. However, that omnipotent being can choose if it wants to control its power or not. 

My "Proof" was not a proof.

Its a representation that explains how God can control everything (If he chooses to)

The point is that if an omnipotent being can limit its own power then it loses omnipotence - if it can not limit its own power it never had omnipotence. As such omnipotence is paradoxical.


It can but does it choose to?

The being then retains the title of omnipotence.


If omnipotence can be removed by a choice then it isn't omnipotence.

Why is it not? 

The omnipotent being has not chosen to set its path to limited power YET he has the power to do it. 



Yay!!!