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Forums - General - Trillion-Dollar Stealth Fighter Cleared for Flight Training ~ Why did it cost that much?

superchunk said:
mrstickball said:
MrBubbles said:
mrstickball said:
Marks said:
So they're about $14-15 trillion in debt but they can afford another trillion on new planes? Holy shit that's messed up dude.


Its already been appropriated, and the costs are spread out over 50 years. At our current budget, thats $20b/yr or about 1/30th of the defense budget.

The American military procurement process is a mess, and it drives up costs far beyond what it should. Its making the flyaway cost of what we're building too high for usage. Many other countries are building and deploying their equipment at much more reasonable prices.

The American military is the pinnacle of why big government sucks. There is no single entity that spends more money than the DoD. This is what we get for it.


you also get electromagnetic rail guns, which is pretty cool. 

also cool...the navies killer dolphins with laser beams on their heads...or something like that...


Interesting thing about the rail gun is that the project was/is pretty darn cheap... Under $1b USD for the whole shebang. Money well spent, IMO.

$240 million so far according to this... http://defense.aol.com/2012/02/28/new-navy-rail-gun-fires-50-miles-with-no-propellant-latest-test/


Right. Total project cost is around $750m to complete it. GIve what its potential is, may be one of the most effective research projects for weapons in a long, long, time.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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theprof00 said:
spurgeonryan said:
theprof00 said:
The military estimates buying and flying the full fleet of roughly 2,500 F-35s could cost $1 trillion over 50 years.

I think you guys read it wrong.


Ahh, I see. Still 1 trillion dollars, and you know it will only go up in cost.

yes, still stupid, just not as stupid.

50 years from now, laser planes will be available.

50 years from now they better have X-Wings and TIE-Fighters!



On 2/24/13, MB1025 said:
You know I was always wondering why no one ever used the dollar sign for $ony, but then I realized they have no money so it would be pointless.

While we are wasting money on useless crap why don't we just spend 1 trillion dollars per plane. We could probably have real stealth planes with optic camoflauge and robotic pilots that can be in the air 24/7 which can be controlled by a super computer like a Skynet equivalent or something.

See! I can think up new and interesting ways to waste money that was taken from people against their will. Where is my job at the Pentagon?



Hopefully these planes do have a long lifespan. However, in order to save money, why don't we just slowly start selling off our older planes to (friendly) foreign nations. At least we'll get something back. Not much, but something. It's better than leaving them to rot in the boneyard. In fact, I don't know the military doesn't do that with everything from guns to tanks to planes. I'm sure some former Soviet republic out there would love to have 30-40 year old American technology.



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mrstickball said:
Badassbab said:
osamanobama said:
Marks said:
So they're about $14-15 trillion in debt but they can afford another trillion on new planes? Holy shit that's messed up dude.


it will cost $1 trillion to buy 2,500 jets, fly them, maintain them, etc over 50 years.

really not that much when you think about it, these planes will be viable for 50 years, before they need a major successor.

each Jet costs roughly 122million to make currently.

also the F-35, is set to replace the F-16, A-10, and the F/A-18, and others so again we will be decomishoning many of our older fleets (which saves money), and started this program in its place.

and if you think about it, these are a hell of a lot cheaper than our B-2 bombers, which cost like $800million to make each (we only have like 20 of these).

of course this is a completely different type of plane. with completely different objectives.


Viable for 50 years? I highly doubt that. The current fleet of 4th gen fighter A/S and Strike jet's lifespan is around 30 years but have been kept in service longer due to F-35 delays and this has resulted in numerous accidents due to the age of the aircrafts. Even if we take the highly dubious claim of 50 year lifespan into account(that's a long time by which time it will be quite obsolete) your looking at an average cost of $20 billion a year in 2012 money to buy and maintain the entire fleet.


Lets see:

B-52 bomber - 60 years old, 85 still in service

B-1 Lancer - 38 years old, 101 still in service

F-15 Eagle - 40 years old, ~1,200 produced and in service

F-16 Falcon - 38 years old, ~5,000 produced and in service

F-18 Hornet - 32 years old, 1,500 build and in service

A-10 Thunderbold II - 40 years old, >100 in service

 

American planes last a long time. All of our equipment does. Look at M-16s. They were developed in the 50s, deployed in the 60s, and our army still uses them. Heck, they are adapting the Carl Gustav 85mm and that design is over 60 years old. The Navy is just starting to build the Ford-class carriers, as the Nimitz carriers were constructed before the Vietnam war, and designed about 50 years ago.

The F-35 should last 50 years. The real problem is with the screwed up procurement process that has delayed its production while armament companies get favorable contracts.

I was only referring to strike and air superiority jets not bombers. Those airframes are under a lot more stress due to a combination of supersonic speeds, high G turns and used a lot more for training and war purposes.  I think those figures you've given are misleading as they are not from operational years but rather from when first flight tested and also they weren't built all during the 70's but over a decade or so. Also there are reasons why those aircraft are being kept in service beyond their lifespan, one being the fall of the Soviet Union which meant there were no equal adversary to warrant a mass purchase of new 5th gen aircraft and the other being the delays in procuring the F-35. If you look at fighter jets during the Cold War which basically lasted 46 years there were 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations developed which basically gave roughly 15 years lifespan per gen with say another 15 or so years of use before being completely phased out.



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Badassbab said:
mrstickball said:
Badassbab said:
osamanobama said:
Marks said:
So they're about $14-15 trillion in debt but they can afford another trillion on new planes? Holy shit that's messed up dude.


it will cost $1 trillion to buy 2,500 jets, fly them, maintain them, etc over 50 years.

really not that much when you think about it, these planes will be viable for 50 years, before they need a major successor.

each Jet costs roughly 122million to make currently.

also the F-35, is set to replace the F-16, A-10, and the F/A-18, and others so again we will be decomishoning many of our older fleets (which saves money), and started this program in its place.

and if you think about it, these are a hell of a lot cheaper than our B-2 bombers, which cost like $800million to make each (we only have like 20 of these).

of course this is a completely different type of plane. with completely different objectives.


Viable for 50 years? I highly doubt that. The current fleet of 4th gen fighter A/S and Strike jet's lifespan is around 30 years but have been kept in service longer due to F-35 delays and this has resulted in numerous accidents due to the age of the aircrafts. Even if we take the highly dubious claim of 50 year lifespan into account(that's a long time by which time it will be quite obsolete) your looking at an average cost of $20 billion a year in 2012 money to buy and maintain the entire fleet.


Lets see:

B-52 bomber - 60 years old, 85 still in service

B-1 Lancer - 38 years old, 101 still in service

F-15 Eagle - 40 years old, ~1,200 produced and in service

F-16 Falcon - 38 years old, ~5,000 produced and in service

F-18 Hornet - 32 years old, 1,500 build and in service

A-10 Thunderbold II - 40 years old, >100 in service

 

American planes last a long time. All of our equipment does. Look at M-16s. They were developed in the 50s, deployed in the 60s, and our army still uses them. Heck, they are adapting the Carl Gustav 85mm and that design is over 60 years old. The Navy is just starting to build the Ford-class carriers, as the Nimitz carriers were constructed before the Vietnam war, and designed about 50 years ago.

The F-35 should last 50 years. The real problem is with the screwed up procurement process that has delayed its production while armament companies get favorable contracts.

I was only referring to strike and air superiority jets not bombers. Those airframes are under a lot more stress due to a combination of supersonic speeds, high G turns and used a lot more for training and war purposes.  I think those figures you've given are misleading as they are not from operational years but rather from when first flight tested and also they weren't built all during the 70's but over a decade or so. Also there are reasons why those aircraft are being kept in service beyond their lifespan, one being the fall of the Soviet Union which meant there were no equal adversary to warrant a mass purchase of new 5th gen aircraft and the other being the delays in procuring the F-35. If you look at fighter jets during the Cold War which basically lasted 46 years there were 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations developed which basically gave roughly 15 years lifespan per gen with say another 15 or so years of use before being completely phased out.


That still doesn't change the reality that the designs lasted for 40-60 years and are still in operation. The same should be said for the F-35 design - that it'll last between 30 - 50 years before being fully decomissioned. Very true the airframes last shorter periods of time (unless they're B-52s), but again, the R&D cost stays mostly static for the design.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

osamanobama said:
Marks said:
So they're about $14-15 trillion in debt but they can afford another trillion on new planes? Holy shit that's messed up dude.


it will cost $1 trillion to buy 2,500 jets, fly them, maintain them, etc over 50 years.

really not that much when you think about it, these planes will be viable for 50 years, before they need a major successor.

each Jet costs roughly 122million to make currently.

also the F-35, is set to replace the F-16, A-10, and the F/A-18, and others so again we will be decomishoning many of our older fleets (which saves money), and started this program in its place.

and if you think about it, these are a hell of a lot cheaper than our B-2 bombers, which cost like $800million to make each (we only have like 20 of these).

of course this is a completely different type of plane. with completely different objectives.

@bolded. I don't know if the US Navy have changed their minds, but I doubt the F-35 will replace their F/A-18s. They always go with planes with 2 engines for safety purposes, landing in an aircraft carrier is a lot harder than landing on the ground so they go with planes with 2 engines to minimize incedents with malfuntioning/damaged engines. That's how the F/A-18 were "born", the YF-17 was the looser of the contract that gave birth to the F-16 but the Navy refused to adopt it and choosed and further developed the looser YF-17 (with 2 jet engines) until it became the F/A-18.

About the costs, when the F-15 was introduced its cost was around 50 millions. Now it's +100 due to many factors but specially electronics and up-to-date upgrades . They have upgraded/replaced the radar many, many times and that made it more and more expensive. And the same will happen with the F-35, those 122 million for the F-35A will go up to 150 before 2020 with the F-35D.



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JEMC said:

@bolded. I don't know if the US Navy have changed their minds, but I doubt the F-35 will replace their F/A-18s. They always go with planes with 2 engines for safety purposes, landing in an aircraft carrier is a lot harder than landing on the ground so they go with planes with 2 engines to minimize incedents with malfuntioning/damaged engines. That's how the F/A-18 were "born", the YF-17 was the looser of the contract that gave birth to the F-16 but the Navy refused to adopt it and choosed and further developed the looser YF-17 (with 2 jet engines) until it became the F/A-18.

About the costs, when the F-15 was introduced its cost was around 50 millions. Now it's +100 due to many factors but specially electronics and up-to-date upgrades . They have upgraded/replaced the radar many, many times and that made it more and more expensive. And the same will happen with the F-35, those 122 million for the F-35A will go up to 150 before 2020 with the F-35D.

F-35 has a Navy variant. It is intended to replace EVERY fighter craft in all US services with the exception of the F-22. Navy will use the F-35C variant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Variants



Badassbab said:
The F-35 has been a disaster. It was meant to be introduced into NATO and other Western allied air forces years ago and it was also meant to decrease costs due to being a one size fits all type of design. The opposite has happened and has in fact ended up being more expensive then the now no longer manufactured and superior Air Superiority Fighter (and more stealthy) the F-22.

The RAND Corporation carried out simulation tests against Russian Su-35 (which is a 4th++ Gen air superiority fighter) where the supposedly 5th Gen F-35 was soundly beaten.

I think it's a case of where there has been so much money and faith put into the F-35 that to cancel it now would be a major political embarrassment, so many heads would roll, military aircraft procurement would be set back by at least a decade and US worldwide prestige would be badly damaged.

What's even worse is Russia will in a few years time start manufacturing their version of the F-22 and will make it available for export (India being the first to sign up- China making their own version). Being solely an air superiority fighter, it's likely to be able to defeat the F-35 in air to air combat so the US may have to restart their F-22 production and perhaps even lift the export ban on it.

Since the beginning, Soviet planes had better aerodynamics making them superior in close range combats, but the US planes had better electronics making the superior in mid-to-long range combat.

No other plane can do the "cobra" besides the SU-27/30 planes



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superchunk said:
JEMC said:
 

@bolded. I don't know if the US Navy have changed their minds, but I doubt the F-35 will replace their F/A-18s. They always go with planes with 2 engines for safety purposes, landing in an aircraft carrier is a lot harder than landing on the ground so they go with planes with 2 engines to minimize incedents with malfuntioning/damaged engines. That's how the F/A-18 were "born", the YF-17 was the looser of the contract that gave birth to the F-16 but the Navy refused to adopt it and choosed and further developed the looser YF-17 (with 2 jet engines) until it became the F/A-18.

About the costs, when the F-15 was introduced its cost was around 50 millions. Now it's +100 due to many factors but specially electronics and up-to-date upgrades . They have upgraded/replaced the radar many, many times and that made it more and more expensive. And the same will happen with the F-35, those 122 million for the F-35A will go up to 150 before 2020 with the F-35D.

F-35 has a Navy variant. It is intended to replace EVERY fighter craft in all US services with the exception of the F-22. Navy will use the F-35C variant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Variants

Thanks for the link. It seem that they have changed their minds. 



Please excuse my bad English.

Former gaming PC: i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Current gaming PC: R5-7600, 32GB RAM 6000MT/s (CL30) and a RX 9060XT 16GB

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.