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Forums - Sony - Sony Working On "New Console" with AMD Graphics, Says Report

AMD GPUs for better performance and lower energy consumption and more environmentally friendly than the energy inefficient Nvidia GPUs.
AMD GPUs over the last few years have out performed and become more energy efficient than Nvidias GPUs. Nvidia days of being the market leader in GPUs are over. AMD is the new king of GPUs. 



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HappySqurriel said:
zarx said:
HappySqurriel said:

On the topic of CPU emulation ...

In the not too distant future I expect to see console manufacturers move towards having developers target a "virtual machine" rather than develop for the hardware directly. With how good JIT compilers are getting, you can still get a highly optimized program without being directly tied to specific hardware. If this was done well the vast majority of games would be "forward compatible" without losing a significant percentage of their performance.


doing that would lose all the advantages of running on dedicated hardware and the optimisations that makes possible. You would basically be making a PC game at that point (they can be optimised but they will never be able to get the level of optimisation of games designed "direct to the metal) but with slightly higher overheads (and you know how much devs complain about API overheads on PC) you won't see it next gen I don't think we will be at the point where hardware far outstrips the games capability to utilize it which is where you need to be for virtual machines to make sense, that or a totally hardware agnostic future where you can buy one game for all platforms (which I don't think the hardware manufacturers want as that would mean they couldn't charge as much royalties). Virtual mchine bassed games could make sense on PC tho as it would prevent issues with conflicts but even there the extra overheads (no matter how slight) make that prohibitive for AAA games. But for lower end games that want to be platform agnostic Java/HTML5 virtual machine makes a lot of sense as you can make one game that will run on anything, even in a browser like Bastion etc.

/Nerd rant

The primary considerations for producing high performance code is using the correct data-structures and algorithms, not on hand-optimization of byte-code that is better handled by a compiler. Even then, the 0.1% of code that you would (potentially) want to write in assembly to increase performance can be (mostly) written by the console manufacturer and provided as library to your VM.

Beyond this, people have been benchmarking C++ vs Java for nearly a decade with results that demonstrate that JIT compilation of Java byte code into machine-code produces similar (overall) results to compiling C++ code into machine-code; with each language having its own advantages in a handful of areas.

Google has already taken this approach with Android, and I don't think many people would say there has been noticeable performance problems on those devices because their games are java based ...

 

With that said, I'm not saying that this upcomming generation will move towards a virtual machine approach but I'm certain the following generation will ...

Google went that route as apps have to be as hardware agnostic as possible as there is a wide veriaty of hardware that it has to run on, running in a virtual machine helps make apps more portable and less prone to conflicts. But they will always incur a performance penalty vs native even the best virtual machines today have a 4-6% CPU performance penalty under ideal situations and in the real world it can be up to a 40% penalty so there is no way consoles will use them unless they literally have performance to burn, or developers for whatever reason need their console games to run on diverse hardware which means you lose the advantage of optomising for a single hardware set and running it direct to metal or at least to very low level APIs (which doesn't require hand optomised code BTW console manufacturers supply specialized compilers).

 

Oh and high performance apps on Android like games actually run native (or at least parts of them that require high performance) as the virtual machine is far to slow.

Here is a benchmark of Dalvik vs native on android 



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zarx said:
HappySqurriel said:
zarx said:
HappySqurriel said:

On the topic of CPU emulation ...

In the not too distant future I expect to see console manufacturers move towards having developers target a "virtual machine" rather than develop for the hardware directly. With how good JIT compilers are getting, you can still get a highly optimized program without being directly tied to specific hardware. If this was done well the vast majority of games would be "forward compatible" without losing a significant percentage of their performance.


doing that would lose all the advantages of running on dedicated hardware and the optimisations that makes possible. You would basically be making a PC game at that point (they can be optimised but they will never be able to get the level of optimisation of games designed "direct to the metal) but with slightly higher overheads (and you know how much devs complain about API overheads on PC) you won't see it next gen I don't think we will be at the point where hardware far outstrips the games capability to utilize it which is where you need to be for virtual machines to make sense, that or a totally hardware agnostic future where you can buy one game for all platforms (which I don't think the hardware manufacturers want as that would mean they couldn't charge as much royalties). Virtual mchine bassed games could make sense on PC tho as it would prevent issues with conflicts but even there the extra overheads (no matter how slight) make that prohibitive for AAA games. But for lower end games that want to be platform agnostic Java/HTML5 virtual machine makes a lot of sense as you can make one game that will run on anything, even in a browser like Bastion etc.

/Nerd rant

The primary considerations for producing high performance code is using the correct data-structures and algorithms, not on hand-optimization of byte-code that is better handled by a compiler. Even then, the 0.1% of code that you would (potentially) want to write in assembly to increase performance can be (mostly) written by the console manufacturer and provided as library to your VM.

Beyond this, people have been benchmarking C++ vs Java for nearly a decade with results that demonstrate that JIT compilation of Java byte code into machine-code produces similar (overall) results to compiling C++ code into machine-code; with each language having its own advantages in a handful of areas.

Google has already taken this approach with Android, and I don't think many people would say there has been noticeable performance problems on those devices because their games are java based ...

 

With that said, I'm not saying that this upcomming generation will move towards a virtual machine approach but I'm certain the following generation will ...

Google went that route as apps have to be as hardware agnostic as possible as there is a wide veriaty of hardware that it has to run on, running in a virtual machine helps make apps more portable and less prone to conflicts. But they will always incur a performance penalty vs native even the best virtual machines today have a 4-6% CPU performance penalty under ideal situations and in the real world it can be up to a 40% penalty so there is no way consoles will use them unless they literally have performance to burn, or developers for whatever reason need their console games to run on diverse hardware which means you lose the advantage of optomising for a single hardware set and running it direct to metal or at least to very low level APIs (which doesn't require hand optomised code BTW console manufacturers supply specialized compilers).

 

Oh and high performance apps on Android like games actually run native (or at least parts of them that require high performance) as the virtual machine is far to slow.

Here is a benchmark of Dalvik vs native on android 

 

The slow performance of certain elements of the JVM are more of an issue with the implementation of the JVM than they are with the approach compiling to an intermediate byte code. As you are aware the JVM was designed to make software that would work across multiple platforms, and performance was an afterthought; and in many cases the JVM is particularly slow because other issues have taken priority over performance. If you're Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo and you're designing your own VM (or modifying an existing VM) to produce a high performance gaming system it is likely that you will make substantially different choices.

To give up 10% of CPU performance in a day and age where games are not CPU bound to ensure forward compatibility regardless of which CPU you choose in the future seems entirely reasonable and practical.



Onibaka said:
It would be VERY interesting if PS4 had a new AMD Gpu + old RSX. The RSX could be used for ps3 emulation, but maybe also for Physx-like technology.

PhysX needs 16 unified shaders to work. The RSX doesn't even have unified shaders.

AMD and Nvidia GPU's are compatible, most of you are talking out of your ass when you say "NOT COMPATIBLE OH NOES"

They WILL go AMD, Nvidia screwed Sony with RSX pricing.



zarx said:

Here is a benchmark of Dalvik vs native on android 

Up until Android 2.2 the Dalvik Android JVM was purely an interpreter, but now it has JIT compilation. Which version is the graph comparing?



WinAPE - The Windows Amstrad Plus Emulator

JEMU  - The Java Emulation Platform

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HappySqurriel said:
BlkPaladin said:
HappySqurriel said:
I have seen several posts claiming that switching to an AMD GPU would eliminate backwards compatibility, but I don't see why this would be the case for well engineered software ...

For the most part, game engines will perform calls to the GPU through a standard graphics API that acts as a hardware abstraction layer; and in the case of Sony and Nintendo this API will most likely be OpenGL. All special features of the graphics cards are accessed through extensions to the standard API. Any distinct features of the PS3 GPU could easily be emulated on the driver of an AMD GPU by using a similar feature on that GPU or on the CPU.

This is the reason why OpenGL was invented, and is the reason why all of your games work on your PC when you decide to upgrade your graphics card.

Consoles are not made to be upgraded so some hardware level coding exhists in the game engines. We seen this with the Xbox/360 BC. Where the games that where not able to be played where acredited to Microsoft no longer being able to use nVidia's propritary code that Microsoft was unwilling to pay for the use of.

In PC yes almost all of the graphics coding is done in the API, but there are cases where games will be optimized for one cardset over another. When this happens there are two different "modules" present one that uses the API, and one that uses code specific for the card set. (The card manufacture usally funds moves like this.)

No, the reason why the XBox 360 had difficulty maintaining backwards compatibility are (primarily) because they switched their CPU architecture; and the instruction set of their new Power based CPU is completely different from the instruction set of their previous Intel based CPU. While you can perform instruction translation to make software run on a different architecture it is very computationally expensive and you run into compatibility issues; and the only way to ensure compatibility is to truly emulate the other system which would be even more computationally expensive.

With the migration from the PS2 to the PS3 there is a bit more of an impact by the change in GPU architecture primarily because the PS2 did not have OpenGL support "out of the box", so developers often produced their own library and (since there was no driver and hardware abstraction layer) there is no way to make their games take advantage of the native OpenGL support on the PS3.

Edit: it is possible that there were some features of the GPU that could not be supported by the XBox 360, but I suspect that would be much more of a patent/licensing issue than a technical issue.

While it is not as simple CISC-to-RISC based emulation has been around at least before the 1990's. Back then the differences between CISC and RISC were more pronounced. (Ever since the introduction of the Pentium line of chips, 586 and higher, more CISC based operations have been introduced into the CISC archetechture, with the introduction of SIMD instructions.) Because I had a Mac nut friend (before Mac and Apple where cool) And he showed off an emulator that allowed Windows to be run on his Mac, which at time required CISC-to-RISC emulation. So for a company that makes programs for both RISC and CISC based arctectures, the emulation of the CPU wouldn't be much of a problem.

The BC compatiblity issues where caused by the break up of Microsoft and nVidia. Unlike CPU's where the machine code can be considered "open source", the GPU code is owned by either ATi or nVidia, so Microsoft had two opitions either pay nVidia royalties for direct use of its code in its emulation or find work arounds. Microsoft tried to work around the coding issue but there where still quite a few of their discs that would work. So as you edit suggests it was patenting issues without the use of the code Microsoft couldn't reproduce some of the procedures on ATi's card. (And such would be the case if some one went from ATi to nVidia.)



Argh_College said:
Wasnt AMD working with Microsoft aswell?

Yes, and Nintendo. 

If they all use similar innards in their consoles, it will make multiplatform development a lot easier, and cut the load on 3rd parties. The only bad that could come out of this, for Sony, is that Backward Compatiility would be a lot harder. 



kowenicki said:
chris.m95 said:
maverick40 said:
chris.m95 said:
maverick40 said:
chris.m95 said:

http://www.gametrailers.com/side-mission/2012/02/22/sony-working-on-new-console-with-amd-graphics-says-report/?xrs=synd_facebook

Saw this and just though you guys would be interested. Fake or genuine?

fake id say because ps3 uses nividia which means no backwards compatibility for the ps4 = dooooooooomeeeeedddd!!!!

They didnt have backwards compatability on PS3 unless you had the 60gb maybe theyll do the smae thing with the PS4 and only have 1 backwards compatable version.

Yes but think what would happen to PSN! Every ounce of content on that would become redundant on the ps4.....

True say but they would fill it with the PS4's PSN soon enough. Also not every PS3 user will switch to PS4 straight away, theyll still make a bit more profit from it before it does die

Thats a non-starter imo.

BC is a must for the next round of consoles from MS & PS.

Fully agree. PSN/XBL games have made B/C a non-negotiable must have for all MS and Sony console generations after this one.

Don't AMD and Nvidia both make gpus for PCs? Pretty sure I have an AMD in my Dell. I shouldn't think it's that hard for 3rd parties to readily accomodate AMD and Nvidia gpu development given PC devs have to do it. Every multi game comes out for PC so every multi game is gonna have to run on AMD and Nvidia gpus. So reasoning that PS4 should have AMD gpu because MS and Ninty do is flawed logic I reckon.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

going AMD doesn't mean squat regarding Backwards compatibility..... Sony is not dumb enough to make that mistake again. Ps4 will be backwards compatible.



Dark_Lord_2008 said:

AMD GPUs for better performance and lower energy consumption and more environmentally friendly than the energy inefficient Nvidia GPUs.
AMD GPUs over the last few years have out performed and become more energy efficient than Nvidias GPUs. Nvidia days of being the market leader in GPUs are over. AMD is the new king of GPUs. 


Not really... Get of those AMD sunglasses, and I mean take the glue that was between your face and them... AMD tries to convince people with more graphic memory for the same price, which isnt really needed... 

And AMD still has an average driver support, I mean, before you neg me to hell google Rage AMD...