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Forums - Politics Discussion - Greece gears up for tough reforms

snakenobi said:
the fall will continue

greece will default this year


This, the euro countries are just holding on making preperations for when it does.



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Stefan.De.Machtige said:
routsounmanman said:
This latest "austerity" package will kill us. Our economy will contract a further ~6% AT THE VERY LEAST. We should just default and go back to the drachma. Greece would fill with tourists yet again (maybe even more so, with Spain, Portugal, Italy,etc in the Euro)

Currency prices depend mainly on trust and resources, which Greece lacks. A new drachma would be worthless.

Who cares? We're defaulting anyways. Just erase the debt and go back to the competitive Drachma.



Pyro as Bill said:
70% of Greeks still want to keep the Euro so 99% of tourists are going to choose Turkey or Egypt instead.

I hope hosting the Olympics on credit/dodgy accounting isn't an omen.


Fuck what the greeks want. Tbey've been living above their means, time to pay.



routsounmanman said:
This latest "austerity" package will kill us. Our economy will contract a further ~6% AT THE VERY LEAST. We should just default and go back to the drachma. Greece would fill with tourists yet again (maybe even more so, with Spain, Portugal, Italy,etc in the Euro)

If you default, you'd have to have austerity, anyway (as you'd have to balance the budget IMMEDIATELY, as in, not a single dollar borrowed - no one would lend to you). If you go to the Drachma and start "printing your way to prosperity", then you'll suffer extremely high inflation, and austerity.

Which option do you want to take?

---

Here's how I'd do it:

 - Leave the Eurozone and the EU. Now you can get rid of all the regulations imposed by the EU. Cutting costs to businesses without cutting taxes.
 - Privatize as many assets as possible. This brings in a quick source of money, as well as giving the private sector a shot in the arm.
 - Merge income/payroll taxes in a single flat-rate tax. This makes it harder to avoid taxes (and reduces incentives to do so), makes collection of taxes cheaper, and, ultimately, leads to a greater income from the tax (without being at higher rates).
 - Set your corporation taxes to the lowest in the region, and pass laws which makes it as easy as possible to hire/fire people. This should help attract foreign investment.
 - Seeing as you're out of the Eurozone. Experiment with non-centralized currency. The only other example (that I know of) is Costa Rica, and they have an extremely low rate of inflation.

Once I've done all those, I'd look at the state of affairs in the economy, and cut as much spending as needed to balance the budget.



SamuelRSmith said:
routsounmanman said:
This latest "austerity" package will kill us. Our economy will contract a further ~6% AT THE VERY LEAST. We should just default and go back to the drachma. Greece would fill with tourists yet again (maybe even more so, with Spain, Portugal, Italy,etc in the Euro)

If you default, you'd have to have austerity, anyway (as you'd have to balance the budget IMMEDIATELY, as in, not a single dollar borrowed - no one would lend to you). If you go to the Drachma and start "printing your way to prosperity", then you'll suffer extremely high inflation, and austerity.

Which option do you want to take?


Easily the second one; at least then, we'd have some pride and dignity. Right now, we're paying for the faults of our useless politicians, and we've become EU's black sheep. Everyone wants us out, and makes stereotypes like we're lazy, live richly, etc.

As a saying goes, "a poor country can get back on it's feet; a humiliated, never"

PS: Also, please tell me if you have even a sliver of hope that this package will get us out of this mess, ever. Deficits will bring more auterity, which will bring more deficits, etc. It's a vicious cycle the one we're in, and there's no way out, unfortunately...



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routsounmanman said:
This latest "austerity" package will kill us. Our economy will contract a further ~6% AT THE VERY LEAST. We should just default and go back to the drachma. Greece would fill with tourists yet again (maybe even more so, with Spain, Portugal, Italy,etc in the Euro)

No it would not. Whether Greece default or not the country more or less in a very messy or chaotic state. No tourist wants to go to a in such an economical and political mess. As far as I can remember, I've been on holiday to Greece 6 times, I have no intention on going back anytime soon (which, tbh honest and fair, is a shame).



SecondWar said:
routsounmanman said:
This latest "austerity" package will kill us. Our economy will contract a further ~6% AT THE VERY LEAST. We should just default and go back to the drachma. Greece would fill with tourists yet again (maybe even more so, with Spain, Portugal, Italy,etc in the Euro)

No it would not. Whether Greece default or not the country more or less in a very messy or chaotic state. No tourist wants to go to a in such an economical and political mess. As far as I can remember, I've been on holiday to Greece 6 times, I have no intention on going back anytime soon (which, tbh honest and fair, is a shame).

A country that defaults doesn't burn for years. After the initial 6 months to 1st year, things begin to stabilize.



routsounmanman said:
SamuelRSmith said:
routsounmanman said:
This latest "austerity" package will kill us. Our economy will contract a further ~6% AT THE VERY LEAST. We should just default and go back to the drachma. Greece would fill with tourists yet again (maybe even more so, with Spain, Portugal, Italy,etc in the Euro)

If you default, you'd have to have austerity, anyway (as you'd have to balance the budget IMMEDIATELY, as in, not a single dollar borrowed - no one would lend to you). If you go to the Drachma and start "printing your way to prosperity", then you'll suffer extremely high inflation, and austerity.

Which option do you want to take?


Easily the second one; at least then, we'd have some pride and dignity. Right now, we're paying for the faults of our useless politicians, and we've become EU's black sheep. Everyone wants us out, and makes stereotypes like we're lazy, live richly, etc.

As a saying goes, "a poor country can get back on it's feet; a humiliated, never"

PS: Also, please tell me if you have even a sliver of hope that this package will get us out of this mess, ever. Deficits will bring more auterity, which will bring more deficits, etc. It's a vicious cycle the one we're in, and there's no way out, unfortunately...

Well, I seem to have a completely different view to you on how society would survive. You seem to think that just because the Government cuts spending, everybody will be poorer. I personally think that society and individuals would thrive with the smallest possible Government. If anything, this could be Greece's greatest opportunity.

Greece should default, and have its own currency (or not, as I suggested in the second half of my post). However, Greeks would have to accept that it's 100% living within their own means from now on. If the tax revenues don't match up to the spending, the spending drops. No alternative.

If Greece was to liberalize her economy - no/limited public health care/education, no welfare, no state pensions; all the Government would do is provide military/police/court system. No income taxes, no sales taxes, no import taxes. I would say with 100% confidence that the country would start to turn around within a year. Within a decade, Greece would be the wealthiest it's ever been. Within a generation, Greece would have one of the highest per-capita incomes in Europe.

But the politicians, the Eurocrats, the education system, and the unions, and the establishment media, have all told you (and me) that we cannot survive without state support. Why won't they do what I suggest? Most politicians are smart men, they know what I'm saying is correct. But they don't care about you. They don't care about your job. All they care about is themselves, and if they can't control you, they won't accept any alternative.



SamuelRSmith said:
routsounmanman said:
SamuelRSmith said:
routsounmanman said:
This latest "austerity" package will kill us. Our economy will contract a further ~6% AT THE VERY LEAST. We should just default and go back to the drachma. Greece would fill with tourists yet again (maybe even more so, with Spain, Portugal, Italy,etc in the Euro)

If you default, you'd have to have austerity, anyway (as you'd have to balance the budget IMMEDIATELY, as in, not a single dollar borrowed - no one would lend to you). If you go to the Drachma and start "printing your way to prosperity", then you'll suffer extremely high inflation, and austerity.

Which option do you want to take?


Easily the second one; at least then, we'd have some pride and dignity. Right now, we're paying for the faults of our useless politicians, and we've become EU's black sheep. Everyone wants us out, and makes stereotypes like we're lazy, live richly, etc.

As a saying goes, "a poor country can get back on it's feet; a humiliated, never"

PS: Also, please tell me if you have even a sliver of hope that this package will get us out of this mess, ever. Deficits will bring more auterity, which will bring more deficits, etc. It's a vicious cycle the one we're in, and there's no way out, unfortunately...

Well, I seem to have a completely different view to you on how society would survive. You seem to think that just because the Government cuts spending, everybody will be poorer. I personally think that society and individuals would thrive with the smallest possible Government. If anything, this could be Greece's greatest opportunity.

Greece should default, and have its own currency (or not, as I suggested in the second half of my post). However, Greeks would have to accept that it's 100% living within their own means from now on. If the tax revenues don't match up to the spending, the spending drops. No alternative.

If Greece was to liberalize her economy - no/limited public health care/education, no welfare, no state pensions; all the Government would do is provide military/police/court system. No income taxes, no sales taxes, no import taxes. I would say with 100% confidence that the country would start to turn around within a year. Within a decade, Greece would be the wealthiest it's ever been. Within a generation, Greece would have one of the highest per-capita incomes in Europe.

But the politicians, the Eurocrats, the education system, and the unions, and the establishment media, have all told you (and me) that we cannot survive without state support. Why won't they do what I suggest? Most politicians are smart men, they know what I'm saying is correct. But they don't care about you. They don't care about your job. All they care about is themselves, and if they can't control you, they won't accept any alternative.

Haphazard, headlong rushes to privatization have been attempted before. Russia called it "shock therapy" in 1992 and they defaulted by 1998, with a great many private and public workers stuck in wage arrears.

Liberalization is not a bad idea, but it needs to occur responsibly, or else you're going to end up with the bulk of people worse off than they were under even a stricter socialism than Greece possesses currently.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:

Haphazard, headlong rushes to privatization have been attempted before. Russia called it "shock therapy" in 1992 and they defaulted by 1998, with a great many private and public workers stuck in wage arrears.

Liberalization is not a bad idea, but it needs to occur responsibly, or else you're going to end up with the bulk of people worse off than they were under even a stricter socialism than Greece possesses currently.

Generally, I'd actually agree with you. Liberalization should really be something that occurs over the course of two terms. However, Greece is in a different situation. routsounmanman has said in previous posts that most workers have already lost 40-50% of their incomes. From what I can see, the people can't really get that much worse off. They're in need of a radical rethink.