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Forums - Gaming Discussion - The video game market as a whole is growing, but...

Bodhesatva said:
That Guy said:
I like this thread. Good job Bodhesatva. Maybe its the kitten avatar that has me intrigued.

Maybe that's what Nintendo was trying to tell us oh so many years ago. RPGs and Racing Simulators are in a decline, so it would be silly to gear the next system to have better looking RPGs and Racing simulators, since the market for those are clearly shrinking.

As for games like Madden, the sales remain the same every year, but the investment developing a next generation console continues to rise, thus the bottom line takes a hit every time a new system comes out.

Your explanation of Madden seems valid, and really gets to the heart of what I'm talking about. It would be one thing if Madden's increasing development costs were being offset by increasing demand.

But generally, we see that X number of people want Madden. That X has been about the same for 5 years. In those 5 years, the cost of producing Madden on a yearly basis has clearly increased profoundly -- perhaps two fold. I expect that Madden is still making a VERY good profit, and will for years to come, but that doesn't change the fact that trouble lays ahead.

If a stable "X" amount of people want Madden year after year, but the game's cost, Z, keeps increasing, eventually Z will be greater than X, and increasing the graphics/complexity/technical power of Madden will no longer be worthwhile. It does not mean that people will stop buying Madden -- I expect football games will sell until the video game medium has entirely gone under -- but it does mean that at some point, we'll stop seeing significant technical improvements in the genre. At some point, improving the graphics any further results in losses, and companies have to say: "That's it, no more."


 Ah, but what you're forgetting is Sequel-itis.

 With development costs rising, it gives companies like EA even MORE incentive to come out with sequels. Why? Because they don't have to re-invent the wheel development wise.

 They could add a couple extra polygons to the models, come up with new soundtrack, add a few gimmicks, update the roster-- then BAM Madden 2009. People will buy it in droves again.

 Sequels are great because developers don't need to "invent" anything new, and since the franchise is a cash cow, then they can reap the profits.

On the other side of the coin, the gaming market can get pretty stale after a while. People can only buy the same thing over and over again before they get tired of it (though sports games get somewhat of an exception).  This phenomena also occurs in the movie industry (How many American Pie and Bring it On sequels can they make? OMG)

 



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I would like to post these two charts, even though you can get them both here at this site (though it takes a while to group it all together).

 

  Console    
4th Generation SNES Genesis Other1 Total  

% Change

from Previous

Japan 17.15 3.59 2.5 23.24   -
America 23.35 17.8 5 46.15   -
Other 8.58 9.36 4 21.94   -
Total: 49.08 30.75 11.5 91.33   -
5th Generation N64 Saturn PlayStation Total    
Japan 5.55 5.74 21.59 43.88   41.48%
America 20.63 1.87 40.78 63.28   37.12%
Other 6.75 1.15 40.12 48.02   118.87%
Total: 32.93 8.76 102.49 144.18   57.87%
6th Generation GameCube PlayStation 2 Xbox Dreamcast Total  
Japan 4.02 25.42 0.53 2.32 32.29 -1.79%
America 12.81 47.68 16.42 4.6 81.51 28.81%
Other 4.76 44.79 7.81 2.21 59.57 24.05%
Total: 21.59 117.89 24.76 9.13 173.37 20.25%
7th Generation Wii PlayStation 3 Xbox360 Total    
Japan 4.5 1.64 0.53 6.67    
America 8.18 3.36 10.13 21.67    
Other 5.84 3.41 5.03 14.28    
Total: 18.52 8.41 15.69 42.62    

1This is based on reports of PCE and NeoGeo... and there doesn't seem to be any good source on it, so it could be debatable.
Past generations figures based on VGChartz "Worldwide Hardware Shipments"
Current generation figures based on VGChartz, week ending 22nd Dec, 2007, using VGChartz "Hardware from Launch"

 

  First Year Totals1      
  GameCube PlayStation 2 Xbox Dreamcast2 Total % Change from Previous
Japan 1.58 3.94 0.37 1.29 7.18 -
America 2.68 4.87 3.62 2.11 13.28 -
Other 1.68 4.46 2.14 1.01 9.29 -
Total: 5.94 13.27 6.13 4.41 29.75 -
  Wii PlayStation 3 Xbox360 Total    
Japan 3.88 1.27 0.19 5.34   -25.63%
America 6.29 2.34 3.48 12.11   -8.81%
Other 4.68 3.41 2.09 10.18   9.58%
Total: 14.85 7.02 5.76 27.63   -7.13%

1First year totals in each region, using VGChartz "Hardware form Launch" set to 52 weeks for each region for each console.
2America and Others numbers are based on Japans first year sales to total LT sales in that region (roughly 50%)
PS3 has only been out in Others for roughly 40 weeks, except for Hong Kong and Taiwan, where it sold roughly 13,000 units.

 

Obviously more is needed than simple numbers, but what interesting in the first chart is the explosion of Others during the PS era, and then the (slight) reduction of the Japanese market last generation.

Also interesting to note that without the Wii (which is not competing with the PS3 and 360), we would be very far behind last generations adoption rate. If you put in a GameCube2 numbers (which would probably be as low as 4 million), then the numbers start looking really bad. Since the PS3 hasn't been out a year in all markets, there's still some time for Others to grow enough to make the total % change zero, but Japan and America are already "lost" (4th season starting soon.. oh yeah).

That's my 2 cents (or... .15 vg cents?)

Edit: PS sales in Japan were wrong...



Since games in the game database has genre info, it would be possible to do a chart of different genres over time. That would be really interesting.



Higher hardware prices are driving a lot of the intense revenue growth we're seeing. (Software revenue alone was totally stagnant in Japan from 2006 to 2007, for example.)

Higher software prices also contribute. 360 and PS3 have higher prices than last gen, and games like Guitar Hero and Halo 3 are pushing even higher prices (and tons of sales).

On the other hand, dropping prices over the course of the generation can offset increased unit sales, and create the illusion of no growth. And I'm sure people will agree the emergence of games like Brain Age is pretty significant, even if they drive less revenue than a much smaller selling 360 game.



"[Our former customers] are unable to find software which they WANT to play."
"The way to solve this problem lies in how to communicate what kind of games [they CAN play]."

Satoru Iwata, Nintendo President. Only slightly paraphrased.

I don't know what's more funny. Leo-j's ignorant or getting schooled by Soriku.



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Galaki said:
I don't know what's more funny. Leo-j's ignorant or getting schooled by Soriku.

 The latter.



Galaki said:
I don't know what's more funny. Leo-j's ignorant or getting schooled by Soriku.

Soriku did just pwn pwn leo, didn't he?

If growth is defined by money I only say that " revenue =/= profit "



 “In the entertainment business, there are only heaven and hell, and nothing in between and as soon as our customers bore of our products, we will crash.”  Hiroshi Yamauchi

TAG:  Like a Yamauchi pimp slap delivered by Il Maelstrom; serving it up with style.

Bodhesatva said:
Played_Out said:
Each successive generation experiences market growth. No generation yet had ever deviated from this formula. And although the growth rate in established markets (US, Japan) may slow down, new markets will continue to open up.

Using anecdotal evidence to support your theories about waning genres leads to false conclusions though. For instance, Street Fighter 2 was a massive cultural phenomenon because it revolutionised the fighting genre by allowing players to select a range of characters with their own distinct set of moves; by the time SF3 came out, far superior games such as Virtua Fighter and Tekken had arrived on the scene and the 2D fighter was dead.

Soul Caliber 3 sold worse than it's predecessor because it wasn't as good, and people who'd already bought SC2 had no reason to buy another fighter that was nearly identical. The second release of a particular franchise on any given platform almost always sells less than the first (taking the PS2 as an example: MGS2>MGS3, GT3>GT4, FFX>FFX-2)

The key issue to bear in mind is that, as the market grows, so too does the competition. The bigger the pie, the more people that want a piece.

I see lots of problems with this. First, your dismissal of the three "anecdotal" examples of Tekken, Soul Calibur and Street Fighter seems a little odd; if you want, I can also add Virtua Fighter to this mix, and then what are we left with? What traditional fighting franchises exist outside of these 4? Guilty Gear was never a major seller to begin with, and I can't think of a single other traditional fighter that has sold over 1 million copies. If Tekken/Street Fighter/Soul Calibur were 3 examples in a sea of millions, maybe I would agree, but these are BY FAR the three biggest fish in a sea of about 50, so it's a lot more meaningful than you give it credit for.

As to your second point, you are incorrect. Lots of games and franchises see increases over the course of a generation -- Grand Theft Auto, Halo, and Dynasty Warriors are all examples from last generation. There isn't a trend to follow here. The example you've given -- Final Fantasy -- is actually an excellent example of a general downward trend of a genre, not of a particular console. VII sold much better than VIII, which sold about as much as X, which sold better than X-2, which sold better than XII. It isn't a straight line downward, but the series is clearly in decline.

Whereas, again, series and/or genres that are increasing in popularity, such as Halo 3 (which is clearly going to outsell Halo 2 despite being on a smaller installed base) and Grand Theft Auto have seen increasing sales.

If we want a quick and dirty breakdown, I see these genres notably increasing in popularity recently:

First Person Shooters
Third Personson Shooters
Massively Multiplayer Online Games
Mini Game Compilations
Self Improvement Games

I see these genres as stagnant or in decline:

Football/Basketball/"Traditional" Sports Games
Racing Simulators
Japanese RPGs
Fighting Games

 


To clarify, my main arguments are thus:

1.) Anecdotal evidence is not proof.
2.) When a game becomes a big hit, many other games emerge that are similar, and inevitably they will chip away at the success of the game that started the trend.

Point 2 is what I was refferring to in regards to Street Fighter 2. A game does not have to be a mainstream success to diminish the popularity of a major franchise (the market typically becomes flooded with crap), but for the sake of argument, lets look at some popular examples. According to VGChartz' (incomplete) data, fighting franchises released since SF2 that have sold more than 1m include:

Killer Instinct
Mortal Kombat (this was the first game to really stick a knife in SF2)
Dead or Alive
Super Smash Bros (okay, that one's dubious as it's not really a fighter)

Other fighting series that have been popular enough to warrant sequels include:

King of Fighters
Battle Arena Toshinden
Marvel vs. Capcom
Capcom vs. SNK
Fatal Fury
Bushido Blade
Power Stone
Fighting Vipers
Tobal
Star Gladiator (I'm really scraping the barrel now, but my point still stands)

As to my theory about certain franchise's decreasing sales, I am not saying that there is a universal trend, as that would contradict my central argument that anecdotal evidence proves nothing. I am simply saying that in the majority of cases, franchises will experience decline within a generation. GTA and Halo buck this trend because they are massive cultural phenomenon; Dynasty Warriors has experienced severe fluctuation and therefore provides no real evidence either way. Once again: anecdotal evidence is not proof. It is worth noting, however,  that a growing install base can account for increases in sales between franchise instalments, but not a decrease.

Your argument collapses when you try to use Final Fantasy to refute my claim, but conveniently left out FF9, which sold less than previous instalments on the PS1, but also sold considerably less than FFX on the PS2. If you include FF9, it would completely validate my hypothesis!

In summary: I am not suggesting that declining franchise sales is solely intra-generational. I am not even claiming that your central hypothesis regarding the waning popularity of certain genres is wrong (in fact, in many cases I would agree). I am simply pointing out the flaws in your methodology.



The charts must be wrong ,its doubtful the PS1 sold 32 million consoles in Japan alone .