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Forums - Politics - Spain unemployment now 5m (22.8%), Highest in industrialised world.

Troll_Whisperer said:

 

But mostly it's just a personal thing. I come from a working class family in Spain and my mum had no money to afford a flat so we were living with my grandma (after getting two degrees and a masters my mum finally got a good job and she's saving a lot now, but she works in Central America and has no flat in Spain).

Looks like it is pretty tough job market there if having 2 degrees and a masters results in being stuck in crappy jobs still.  At least she finally got a good job like you said but I find it almost the same situation over here.  The unemployment went up so high in USA so quickly that a lot of people with tons of experience were applying for the same basic low paying jobs as I was going for (during my 6 months of unemployment).  Basically you have people with bachelors degrees working at McDonalds now in the USA.  At least they can be counted as employed by the government right?  You might have a shit job but if you are employed then everything is A okay right?  Wrong

Problem with America is that a lot of good paying jobs are now gone for good (or at least a decent amount of years).  The main thing left now is shit jobs.



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sethnintendo said:
Troll_Whisperer said:

 

But mostly it's just a personal thing. I come from a working class family in Spain and my mum had no money to afford a flat so we were living with my grandma (after getting two degrees and a masters my mum finally got a good job and she's saving a lot now, but she works in Central America and has no flat in Spain).

Looks like it is pretty tough job market there if having 2 degrees and a masters results in being stuck in crappy jobs still.  At least she finally got a good job like you said but I find it almost the same situation over here.  The unemployment went up so high in USA so quickly that a lot of people with tons of experience were applying for the same basic low paying jobs as I was going for (during my 6 months of unemployment).  Basically you have people with bachelors degrees working at McDonalds now in the USA.  At least they can be counted as employed by the government right?  You might have a shit job but if you are employed then everything is A okay right?  Wrong

Problem with America is that a lot of good paying jobs are now gone for good (or at least a decent amount of years).  The main thing left now is shit jobs.

It's probably a worldwide problem, though I think it's much worse in Spain than in the US. Outside of services (shops, bars, hotels) and housing there is little else. Many skilled people here are leaving to America and Germany, after finding that their degree is useless in a society that wasn't built around quality jobs.



No troll is too much for me to handle. I rehabilitate trolls, I train people. I am the Troll Whisperer.

Troll_Whisperer said:

It's probably a worldwide problem, though I think it's much worse in Spain than in the US. Outside of services (shops, bars, hotels) and housing there is little else. Many skilled people here are leaving to America and Germany, after finding that their degree is useless in a society that wasn't built around quality jobs.


I think you hit the nail on the head with that one.  Same can be said about USA.  We are a service economy with mainly service type jobs.  You don't climb the ladder by working 50+ hours a week cleaning up someone's shit.  You get by...



I remember watching on the news in my country that some inmigrants are already leaving because of the situation, I dont have numbers or anything, but it isnt surprising.



routsounmanman said:
Mr Khan said:
routsounmanman said:
Greece is ATM at 21% (official) and still rapidly rising. And if the new austerity measures (economy killers I say) come through today, woohoo, we'll be no.1

Some of the Papademos cabinet resigned over the proposals, didn't they? It's safe to say the Greeks are determined to resist austerity

Wouldn't you if you already had your income cut by more than 40-50% already while our useless polititians got raises? You have to understand that most people here in Greece, know that we all had our share in our deficits, but only few bear the burden still, thus the riots.

And what would you do if aforementioned polititians did nothing for the best of your country? We have the strongest negotiation "card" in the world ATM. A Greek disorderly default could potentialy destroy the entire global economic system! Wouldn't you haggle more?

I'm not saying that we should blackmail the EU, but the measures could have been a bit smoother and fair overall. On  top of that, all of Europe tags us as useless, lazy and EU cancer!


I've been trying to find information about Greece's budget, in terms of outgoing and incomes (like, how much is spent on X and Y, how much is brought in by VAT, etc), just so I can get a better picture of what's actually going on. Unfortunately, Google doesn't seem to be very helpful and just gives me results of how great the deficit is.

Are there any good (recent/accurate) sources that you know of?



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routsounmanman said:
Kasz216 said:
routsounmanman said:
Greece is ATM at 21% (official) and still rapidly rising. And if the new austerity measures (economy killers I say) come through today, woohoo, we'll be no.1

Dunno why you'd think that.  Most of the "austerity" measures that were voted on today weren't really austerity measures but liberalization of labor laws meant to decrease unemployment.

Reduction of minium wage sucks sure, but it will only decrease unemployment.


You think that's an austerity measure that raises unemployment... try not being able to pay anyones salary.

It's not just the minimum wage. Pension cuts, Supplement pension cuts (fourth time in 2011!), estates tax increase (3rd time in 2011), VAT increase, Cigarette tax increase, unemployment wage decrease, etc

Decreasing minimum wage by itself cannot lower unemployment. Greece has so few factories and producing capabilities, who will hire all those people, even at low wages? Mark my words, these "austerity measures" WILL kill what's left of the Greek economy...

Some people have had their income slashed by 40-50% already! Stores and services have had their income reduced more than 70% (myself included). Can someone please tell me why we Greeks have it so hard while Portugal and Ireland haven't had so heavy measures forced onto them?

It's like everyone holds a grudge on Greece for some reason...

Defaulting would not only kill what's left of the economy, it would salt the ground and slaughter all the female livestock.

 Why do the greeks have it so hard compared to Portgual and Ireland? 

Check Government Debt as a percentage of GDP.

 

 



UncleScrooge said:
Kasz216 said:
KillerMan said:
osamanobama said:
incase people are still confused... socialism doesnt work.

America wake up

Yep. That is why Nordic countries and Germans are so fucked with their huge unemployement figures and rising bond yields. Oh wait...

Although his gross generalziation is silly... it is worth noting that until recently unemployment had been a huge problem among pretty much all socilized nations... to the point of where such high unemployment was termed "Eurostasis".

The kind of unemployment Germany had in the 90's 2000's is the kind of unemployment that would of caused panic in the streets US wise.  Up until about 05.  German unemploynment was lucky to be below 9%.

As an example

http://www.newsneconomics.com/2010/07/crib-notes-for-g7-unemployment-rates.html

The one exception was Denmark, who while highly socialized had some of the most liberal (As in oldschool liberal IE Rightwing) labor policy laws in the world.  More so then the US even.

 

German Unemployment now tends to be low because there is no minium wage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/19/business/global/many-germans-scrambling-as-economic-miracle-rolls-past.html?pagewanted=all

 

Socialism really isn't the issue when it comes to unemployment policy wise.  It's labor market liberalization that matters


Good post and Denmark is a great example of having both a well developed socialist state and a liberal labor market. When talking german unemployment quotes you should never forget the costs of reunification, though. After 1989 economy in former east Germany basically imploded - they simply couldn't compete. Since then unemployment in the new german states has been roughly twice as high (11.3% vs 6.0% in 2011) than unemployment in the western parts. (Check out this link: http://www.spiegel.de/flash/flash-12125.html

And I totally agree with the last line. A liberal labor market and a socialist welfare state actually complement each other in some ways.


Definitly, with a liberal labor market you come closest to maximizing your workforce, while a strong social welfare state covers people being out of work for months at a time due to the workforce being variable.


The only issue is making sure that doesn't cause too much of an malaise of unemployed people who'd rather stay that way.  Which, I think is why such measures tend to work best in smaller more homogenized countries.

People really tend to overlook differences in culture and size when making comparisons. 



routsounmanman said:
Mr Khan said:
routsounmanman said:
Greece is ATM at 21% (official) and still rapidly rising. And if the new austerity measures (economy killers I say) come through today, woohoo, we'll be no.1

Some of the Papademos cabinet resigned over the proposals, didn't they? It's safe to say the Greeks are determined to resist austerity

Wouldn't you if you already had your income cut by more than 40-50% already while our useless polititians got raises? You have to understand that most people here in Greece, know that we all had our share in our deficits, but only few bear the burden still, thus the riots.

And what would you do if aforementioned polititians did nothing for the best of your country? We have the strongest negotiation "card" in the world ATM. A Greek disorderly default could potentialy destroy the entire global economic system! Wouldn't you haggle more?

I'm not saying that we should blackmail the EU, but the measures could have been a bit smoother and fair overall. On  top of that, all of Europe tags us as useless, lazy and EU cancer!

Maybe a few months ago.  Everyones pretty much written in the probability of a greek default at this point.

All a disorderly default would do at this point is force greece out of the EU.

Switching it's debt into Drachmas... which would then be greatly devalued vs their debts in euros....

HUGELY raising their debt.



Kasz216 said:
routsounmanman said:
Mr Khan said:
routsounmanman said:
Greece is ATM at 21% (official) and still rapidly rising. And if the new austerity measures (economy killers I say) come through today, woohoo, we'll be no.1

Some of the Papademos cabinet resigned over the proposals, didn't they? It's safe to say the Greeks are determined to resist austerity

Wouldn't you if you already had your income cut by more than 40-50% already while our useless polititians got raises? You have to understand that most people here in Greece, know that we all had our share in our deficits, but only few bear the burden still, thus the riots.

And what would you do if aforementioned polititians did nothing for the best of your country? We have the strongest negotiation "card" in the world ATM. A Greek disorderly default could potentialy destroy the entire global economic system! Wouldn't you haggle more?

I'm not saying that we should blackmail the EU, but the measures could have been a bit smoother and fair overall. On  top of that, all of Europe tags us as useless, lazy and EU cancer!

Maybe a few months ago.  Everyones pretty much written in the probability of a greek default at this point.

All a disorderly default would do at this point is force greece out of the EU.

Switching it's debt into Drachmas... which would then be greatly devalued vs their debts in euros....

HUGELY raising their debt.

That's not true. Who in their right mind would buy / keep Portugese / Irish / Italian / Spanish bonds after a Greek default? People would start transfering money to other countries as well. The banks would simply not keep up.



Having done a quick google search, the most up to date reference of the employment to population ratio in Spain that I could find was January 2009 and it was 47.9% ...

If the unemployment statistics were honest, Spain's unemployment rate would probably be closer to 40% (or higher).