Forums - Gaming Discussion - Naughty Dog co-founder: “We’ve lost millions to Piracy”

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Kasz216 said:
SWORDF1SH said:
Kasz216 said:
SWORDF1SH said:
Kasz216 said:

seems like a REALLY specific subjective situation to me.   I could eaisly note that I knew nobody with a chipped PS1.  Or PS2... only piracy ever being chipped Xboxes.

Also... that's not a lot.

It mor or less proves my point. 

The number of copies pirated that would of restulted in actual sales is generally very small and those piracy numbers are actually extremly small compared to other media.

Compare.

http://torrentfreak.com/top-10-most-pirated-movies-of-2009-091220/


How do you know? Thats seems subjective to me unless there was a study on every single game pirated.

I say a study on every single pirated game because each game game is a different case. People who bought Gran turismo pirated would of got it because they really wanted and would be more likely to buy it if they couldnt get it pirated than somebody who got, lets say, actua golf pirated because they are more likey to have got it pirated because they was curious or just got it because it was cheap.

My point is you can't say its say "The number of copies pirated that would of restulted in actual sales is generally very small and those piracy numbers are actually extremly small compared to other media."  without you actually providing the right facts and why provide a link to pirated movies but not top pirated game. So how can we compare?

Somebody made a good point on here though. Piracy in some cases can build up some franchises because when people get older they tend to start to buy the games. From my experience I got Metal Gear Solid and Gran Turismo pirated. I love them and bought MGS2, MGS3, MGS4, MGS1 (PSN), Gran Turismo 2, GT3, GT4, GT5P, GT5 at retail. Not a bad return from losing a few quid on 2 pirated game

That's a logical fallacy for sure to argue that each game is a unique situation.  If that's a case 90% of science would be usless.

Also uh... he posted a link to top pirated games.  So i responded with a link of the movies, it was about 10 times difference.

Though yeah, piracy does have a lot of positive effects too, I in general didn't want to get into it, because when you mention the positive effects people tend to get a bit pissy because it doesn't fit with their world view.


Sorry didn't see his list so I retract what I said about your link. But I stand by my opinion and I think it holds some weight. Each game would be a unique case for the reasons I said above. Crash being one of the more popular games would of had more people buying it pirated and also an higher percentage of the people buying it pirated would of bought it if piracy wasn't an option.

But anyway is there a study on piracy Would of/wouldn't of bought it ratio rate if piracy wasn't an option for games in general. Would genuinely like to see it.

Edit: I just read his links and 4M+ illeagal downloads for some games is huge. also consider that games retail for 4x as much than movies so 4x more of the profit lost. It also could be even more copies because 1 download can be burned onto numerous amount of disks.

Been looking, it's a pain in the ass to find ANYTHING pirate related anymore though.  Lot easier to read the stuff in academic journals when it comes out.

In general though it's common sense.

I mean think about it.  

A) The cost of piracy is essentially zero.  So actually the more expensive the loss is essentially an inverse relationship.   As an example, a friend of mine gave almost everybody he knew a copy of Paintshop Pro.  A program that is thousands of dollars.

Nobody he gave it to had ANY intention of buying the professional grade program, and only got it because it was "A Cool updated paint".  

I mean, assume for a minute you decided "You know what, piracy is fine."   Woulda you download every game you had the slightest interest in, even stuff like say... the Ironman movie tie ins, if you liked Ironman, even though you KNOW it's gonna suck?  Or maybe a game like Haze or Lair or some other game that's knon for being epically bad?

Shit if I was a pirate, i'd pirate everything from Call of Duty to Barbie games, just to see how Barbie game mechanics work... and neither are games I'd ever buy.

B) A lot of pirates tend to hold MASSIVE libraries, of pirated everything, because why not?   If the average person owned 30 albums, the average pirate would usually own 35 albums then have an illegal library of like 300-400 Albums worth of music often with multiple copies of the same thing, just because.  Your average pirate is going to have more games then they'll ever play, because essentially they can download everything, and give anything a try.

C)  People who are getting copies of games on disc from other people didn't even think the game was worth the effort to download... let alone buy.

D)  The highest rates of piracy are in countires like Armenia.  Per Capita GDP $6,400.

Essentially when looking at piracy you have to look at pretty much western nations only... and even more so, mostly the United States, if we're going off a "would of bought it anyway" model, then you've got to take out the archivists, the poor, redownloads (A lot more common then you'd think).


I get what you're saying and yes I do get that less popular games will be pirated just because they can and piracy wouldn't affect profit because less people wouldnt buy them at retail anyway. I made that point earlier. What i'm saying is that popular games like the gran turismos and call of dutys are highly popular games and I think a lot of people that got it pirated would of bought a retail copy.

Piracy of games was massive here in the uk from my experience on the ps1(you were the odd one out if you didnt have you ps1 chipped),ps2 and even now on psp and ds. my cousin and a few friends (who aren't archivists, poor or redownloaders) have a card with 20 games on for the ds when i can be 80% sure they would of bought at least 4 of the games on that card. PS3 and the 360 seem to have gotten a grip on piracy so thats good for the industry.

Anyway kasz. I do take on board your opinions and do respect them but without any hard evidence I have to go by my own experience.



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Ok, how do you lose money on a Crash game being sold for a dollar in Bangkok?  Like anyone buying games for a dollar in Bangkok has enough money to buy games for 60 USD.  Money isn't lost if the person who pirated couldn't afford the product to begin with.  The way people look at digital crime is rather perverse if you ask me. And I mean clearly  Rubin isn't starving if he's able to jet set around the world to check Crash prices.  Greed is so unbridled and accepted in the west its sickening. 



aken909 said:

Ok, how do you lose money on a Crash game being sold for a dollar in Bangkok?  Like anyone buying games for a dollar in Bangkok has enough money to buy games for 60 USD.  Money isn't lost if the person who pirated couldn't afford the product to begin with.  The way people look at digital crime is rather perverse if you ask me. And I mean clearly  Rubin isn't starving if he's able to jet set around the world to check Crash prices.  Greed is so unbridled and accepted in the west its sickening. 


This is good.



Mr Khan said:
If it's worth buying, people will buy it legitimately. You can't think of pirates as potential customers, all you can really focus on is trying to make a good game with real market appeal, and the rest will sort itself out.

If that is the case , why are the good games with real market appeal the ones most pirated, the fact is if you can get it for free without to much hassle and your

the kind of person that is ok with that , then you will do it.



aken909 said:

Ok, how do you lose money on a Crash game being sold for a dollar in Bangkok?  Like anyone buying games for a dollar in Bangkok has enough money to buy games for 60 USD.  Money isn't lost if the person who pirated couldn't afford the product to begin with.  The way people look at digital crime is rather perverse if you ask me. And I mean clearly  Rubin isn't starving if he's able to jet set around the world to check Crash prices.  Greed is so unbridled and accepted in the west its sickening. 


 I completely agree with this post. Back in PS one era there were a lot of people playing crash games around here, none of them were original copies. When the average salary in your country is about $650 a month, believe me, nobody is going to buy a $60 game no matter the argument. People are willing to pay for consoles they can pirate, not for overpriced games.



Menx64

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Everybody I knew had a PS1, a chipped PS1. Most (if not all) had atleast one Crash Bandicoot game, if not multiple. Piracy probably did ND out of $2000+ at my school...

I don't know if this phenomena was consistent across the lands, though. I remember hearing parents talking about it, and many refused to buy their kids consoles unless they got them chipped (could not justify £30 a game).

Times have certainly changed, though. In fact, I don't know a single person who has chipped a console since.

Emulators were pretty massive, too... though this mainly effected Gameboy and Gameboy Advance, at the time.



mjk45 said:
Mr Khan said:
If it's worth buying, people will buy it legitimately. You can't think of pirates as potential customers, all you can really focus on is trying to make a good game with real market appeal, and the rest will sort itself out.

If that is the case , why are the good games with real market appeal the ones most pirated, the fact is if you can get it for free without to much hassle and your

the kind of person that is ok with that , then you will do it.

They are the most pirated because they have the most appeal, but the point of it all is that more than enough legitimate copies will be sold that the producer shouldn't care about the ones taken by non-customers.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

mjk45 said:
Mr Khan said:
If it's worth buying, people will buy it legitimately. You can't think of pirates as potential customers, all you can really focus on is trying to make a good game with real market appeal, and the rest will sort itself out.

If that is the case , why are the good games with real market appeal the ones most pirated, the fact is if you can get it for free without to much hassle and your

the kind of person that is ok with that , then you will do it.

Because a game does not hold the same amount of value to everbody.

It's actually a REALLY simple concept if you understand economics.

Though I suppose fairly hard to explain without knowing how much you know about economics...

Do  you know about Price Elasticity, Emotional Cost and variable value?

Price Elasticity basically states that not everbody values everything at the same price.  An antique sewing kit may be worth $1000 bucks to an old lady who loves sewing but it doesn't mean anything to me, and it might meant $20 to a sewer who doesn't care about sewings history.

Essentially Piracy holds with it an emotional cost that is, a cost that isn't money related.


Say for example....

Your average pirate feels somewhat sketchy about downloading a videogame... which we can value at $10.

Then they value their harddrive space at about $4 dollars because it's a pain to have to delete suff and games are HUGE in size.

Throw in downloading which coudl vary anwyehre between a couple bucks to a LOT depending on your internet connection... even downlaoding it whie alseep or at work adds emotional cost because of how often these things can screw up.  Lets say another dollar just to round it out pretty even.

(This is a simplistic thing, not including stuff like fear of lawsuits, social ostrasizing, cost of chipping by breaking warranty, offset cost by already having a chipped console and wanting to prove the chipping was worth it due to cognitive dissonance....)

EC of course will vary according to person, but this is just to illustrate the point.  People with a higher EC then the cost of the product are people who don't pirate.

The point is, piracy itself has a cost attached to it just not one in dollars.   Keeping price the same for all products, an more appealing game will get more sales because more people have crossed that threshold of $60 value, HOWEVER, it will be pirated more, because the game will cross the Emotional Cost of more pirates while NOT passing the $60 threshold.  (People are actually more likely to pay for something than take it for free, even when there is no chance to be caught).

There are far, far, many more people out there who are somewhat interested in games but not at the price offered then there ever are people who would pay for it... this is really true for any industry because people are extremly diverse. 

Well except the medical industry.  People more often then not will shell out whatever to save their own lives.




Rpruett said:
It's just an excuse. Sales of all of this media is as high as it has ever been (With increasing costs and a poorer society in general) yet, Piracy is holding them back? Please. It's just an excuse for their shareholders. It's not looking at all of the facts just the selective ones.

Provide intrinsic value to your games and people won't pirate them, I guarantee it. People don't pirate World of Warcraft because there is no point. The value and fun being had on their servers is worth the fee and they don't really nickle and dime you until you get 2 expansions in.

Hell, I own all three Uncharted games. Yet the funniest part about that? I have played the Multiplayer for about an hour tops (On Uncharted 2) and haven't even touched it in the 3rd one yet. My question to Naughty Dog is ... "How many millions have you made off of people like me, who have absolutely no reason to buy their games when I could easily rent it for 5$ and beat it in a week?"

Personally, no game I have ever gone on to play pirated was ever a legitimate consideration of purchase. With the outside possibility of some SNES Rom games that those were pirated more on a sense of never being able to find the game to purchase.

Don't get me started on movies, music. How about they keep their big screen movies, latest albums on lock down so pirated copies don't hit the streets weeks before the public can purchase? That's the biggest crime in all of this, because they can't keep their material on lock down they need to find scape goats.


I would just like to say, that there is absolutely no point at all in bringing Uncharted into this. Both co-founders of Naughty Dog left the company before Uncharted was ever thought up. This is clearly about Crash, which is why it was used as an example in the article.

And about this whole thing, I do believe it could be correct. Literally everyone I knew had a chipped Playstation back in the day, and everyone had all four Crash games pirated. My family, my friends, I believe I was just about the only one who didn't pirate, because it's just not in my morals to do so. And anyone who paid to get a Playstation would of course buy Crash for it... Unless they could get the games for free, of course.

I still know tons of people who pirate, someone in my family hasn't bought a single Wii game, but has about one hundred games downloaded on some sort of piracy channel thingy. It's quite amusing.