By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - OWS UC Davis Pepper Spray - What Really Happened

Galaki said:
Kasz216 said:
Galaki said:
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
Walking down a line of passive protestors and spraying them is clearly wrong. Pepper spray, along with other less than lethal weapons, should only be used to subdue aggresive people who are causing danger to themselves or others.

If they were breaking the law with their sit in then the officer could have arrested them, if they aggresively resisted arrest then he could have pepper sprayed them. What he did however, spray them when they were not aggresive, was reprehensible.

You seem to have missed the part where they already arrested people.

They arrested as many people as they could handle.  Which gave them the options of pepperspray or waiting for backup.  The second option is how dangerous riots happen.

Pepperspraying was by far the best option available.

Wait. Isn't that a thought crime? You're assuming the worse could happen used chemical weapon to prevent something that may or may not happen.

No?

Aside from which, prior bad acts.  Occupy Oakland was supposed to go down and support Occupy UC Davis.... and they very specifically started a violent riot while the cops waited for backup.

Didn't the police also the agressors in that case? Regardless, just because 1 group did something, you justified the police action on another group?

Sure, they did something you don't agree with, but surely, they don't deserve the chemical weapons used on them.


It was the same group more or less? 

Also, calling pepper spray a chemcial wepaon is technically true but highly misleading.

Activly impeding the police is a pretty big deal which generally does result in the use of Pepperspray.  When you intentionally impede an officers movement during an arest you cross the line into "Active resistance". 

I mean, what if instead of protesters, this was a guy who had just stolen something or even murdered someone, and as the police officer runs after him, a big wall of people intentionally get in his way?  Or prevents him from getting the criminal to jail.



Around the Network
Kasz216 said:

It was the same group more or less? 

Also, calling pepper spray a chemcial wepaon is technically true but highly misleading.

Activly impeding the police is a pretty big deal which generally does result in the use of Pepperspray.  When you intentionally impede an officers movement during an arest you cross the line into "Active resistance". 

I mean, what if instead of protesters, this was a guy who had just stolen something or even murdered someone, and as the police officer runs after him, a big wall of people intentionally get in his way?  Or prevents him from getting the criminal to jail.

Now you're comparing protesters to murderers... I think we're done with this "discussion".



Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
 

No, aggressive police behaviour against passive protests is how riots happen.

See the Occupy Oakland.  Or the London student riots.  Where things got out of hand because the police showed they had lost control of the situation.

You honestly think that those situations would have been made better by police attacking passive protestors? History shows that police aggression causes riots.

 

Edit: Wow. You compared peaceful protestors to people aiding a murderer. I think I'm done here.



Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
 

No, aggressive police behaviour against passive protests is how riots happen.

See the Occupy Oakland.  Or the London student riots.  Where things got out of hand because the police showed they had lost control of the situation.

You honestly think that those situations would have been made better by police attacking passive protestors? History shows that police aggression causes riots.

 

Edit: Wow. You compared peaceful protestors to people aiding a murderer. I think I'm done here.

No, I compaired them to people activly stopping the arrest of other people.  What the arrest is for is fairly pointless.  I was just using something else you'd actually consider a crime to point out the severity.

Murder/theft really any crime works. That your focusing on the actual murder point and breaking off the conversation I think actually makes my point for me about impeding arrest being more then just regular "passive reisistance."



Kasz216 said:

No, I compaired them to people activly stopping the arrest of other people.  What the arrest is for is fairly pointless.  I was just using something else you'd actually consider a crime to point out the severity.

Murder/theft really any crime works. That your focusing on the actual murder point and breaking off the conversation I think actually makes my point for me about impeding arrest being more then just regular "passive reisistance."


The severity of the two things is completely different though! How you can see a passive political protest as being the same as preventing the arrest of a murderer kind of boggles my mind.



Around the Network

What this demonstrates is what those of us with experience, common sense, or the ability to read already understood ... Ignorance and denial do not protect you against the physical or legal consequences of your actions.

The protestors provoked police to the point where this action was (probably) justified given local standards for the use of pepper-spray, they ignored repeated warnings that the police were going to use pepper-spray and acted in a way that demonstrated they didn't have the maturity to handle the situation they found themselves in.

So, once again these "Peaceful Protestors" claimed "Police Brutality" based on a 10 second video clip where the reality was the police were taking a justified action against protestors who were not being peaceful.



HappySqurriel said:
"Police Brutality" based on a 10 second video clip




Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
 

No, I compaired them to people activly stopping the arrest of other people.  What the arrest is for is fairly pointless.  I was just using something else you'd actually consider a crime to point out the severity.

Murder/theft really any crime works. That your focusing on the actual murder point and breaking off the conversation I think actually makes my point for me about impeding arrest being more then just regular "passive reisistance."


The severity of the two things is completely different though! How you can see a passive political protest as being the same as preventing the arrest of a murderer kind of boggles my mind.

The severity is the same, but it's the same crime.  Both are preventing the police from completing an arrest.  Rather it be protestors, a thief, a murderer... it doesn't matter. 

I mean, what if, for example in a case of robberty, the crowd does what UC Davis students did, in protest of income inequality causing the crime.

Once you are activly getting in the way of the police actions of arresting it's not really a passive protest anymore.



Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
 

No, I compaired them to people activly stopping the arrest of other people.  What the arrest is for is fairly pointless.  I was just using something else you'd actually consider a crime to point out the severity.

Murder/theft really any crime works. That your focusing on the actual murder point and breaking off the conversation I think actually makes my point for me about impeding arrest being more then just regular "passive reisistance."


The severity of the two things is completely different though! How you can see a passive political protest as being the same as preventing the arrest of a murderer kind of boggles my mind.

The severity is the same, but it's the same crime.  Both are preventing the police from completing an arrest.  Rather it be protestors, a thief, a murderer... it doesn't matter. 

I mean, what if, for example in a case of robberty, the crowd does what UC Davis students did, in protest of income inequality causing the crime.

Once you are activly getting in the way of the police actions of arresting it's not really a passive protest anymore.

While you have a point to a degree, you are assuming that it is just for police to have the ability to pursue arrests using whatever means they wish, so long as they give warning. The goal of restraint in the administration of justice begets a practical mandate that law enforcement officials be no more violent than the individuals they are trying to apprehend: only violence should be met with violence, of any sort, but this examines the crime holistically.

Clearly it is alright to tackle someone who is actively trying to stop you from pursuing a violent criminal even if all that person is doing is standing in the way, since its a matter of abetting a violent crime, but nonviolent protestors abetting other nonviolent protestors should not be dealt with by violence no matter how obstinate they get.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
 

No, I compaired them to people activly stopping the arrest of other people.  What the arrest is for is fairly pointless.  I was just using something else you'd actually consider a crime to point out the severity.

Murder/theft really any crime works. That your focusing on the actual murder point and breaking off the conversation I think actually makes my point for me about impeding arrest being more then just regular "passive reisistance."


The severity of the two things is completely different though! How you can see a passive political protest as being the same as preventing the arrest of a murderer kind of boggles my mind.

The severity is the same, but it's the same crime.  Both are preventing the police from completing an arrest.  Rather it be protestors, a thief, a murderer... it doesn't matter. 

I mean, what if, for example in a case of robberty, the crowd does what UC Davis students did, in protest of income inequality causing the crime.

Once you are activly getting in the way of the police actions of arresting it's not really a passive protest anymore.

While you have a point to a degree, you are assuming that it is just for police to have the ability to pursue arrests using whatever means they wish, so long as they give warning. The goal of restraint in the administration of justice begets a practical mandate that law enforcement officials be no more violent than the individuals they are trying to apprehend: only violence should be met with violence, of any sort, but this examines the crime holistically.

Clearly it is alright to tackle someone who is actively trying to stop you from pursuing a violent criminal even if all that person is doing is standing in the way, since its a matter of abetting a violent crime, but nonviolent protestors abetting other nonviolent protestors should not be dealt with by violence no matter how obstinate they get.

Violence should only be met with violence?   If that was the case then there would be no way to remove peaceful protestors, no matter where they are, be it blocking traffic, or a hospital or whatever.

Dragging the protestors from their illegal spaces afterall is inherently violent and can cause some pain and even possibe longterm damage.  Which is what makes the pepperspray incidient even more confusing.  Sure it hurts like a bitch, but the possible permament after affects are less likely or prevelent then what's used already.

Additionally, whether they intentionally block the way of the police due to theif, murderer, protestor or tax cheat... they are committing the same crime.  Resisitng Arrest. (You can be charged with it by trying to prevent soemone elses arrest.)

Resisting Arrest is listed under Active Resistance.

Once they decided to try and block the arrests they technically weren't passive resisters anymore, but active ones.  Regardless of not trying to physically attack anyone.