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Forums - General Discussion - Mafia Round 36 - Suikoden II

NoCtiS_NoX said:

I agree on the discussion but we shouldn't made our vote public because IMO that could be easily manipulated by the scums.

And if I am reading the rules right. The investigator has the freedom to choose if there's a draw?
So if that is the case, I think we should give that honor or privilege to the investigator so at least he will have the freedom to choose who is going to be investigated and we shouldn't take that power away form the investigator.

I think I am seeing what Prof and Vette are trying to say. What if the investigator thinks that a certain person is scum and he wants him to be investigated and we chose another person to be investigated he will be forced to investigate that certain person. What if that certain turns out to be a town and the person he wants to investigated turns out to be a scum so just like I said from the 2nd paragraph we shouldn't take that away from the investigator.

Anyways FoS on metalgear for even suggesting that we should make our vote public.

My post basically meant that we should all come to a consensus on who to investigate. So we as a town can collectivley voice our opinions on who we think should be the targeted, instead of leaving it up to chance, therefore giving mafia more oportunity control the votes.



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Busy ass day, but I see several are coming to the conclusion I did a day ago and frankly circle-talking otherwise.

I gotta get some food in me, but I'll outline pros and cons of options in a bit. Spoiler: I think a consensus on 2 or 3 people we all pledge(though free will is of course still given) to vote for is the best plan.

Also, day ends in about 12 hours and there's hardly even been a push for anyone's lynch yet. I think we're in need of the extension.

Vote: Time Extension
Should be 5 more votes needed
@Stefl, Are you/TOS going to be around for a hard deadline, or is it up to when one of you is around?



Says the guy without a vote on anyone...



theprof00 said:
You dont even voice all your reasons for voting me?
Well please tell me then because i think youre lying.

Secondly, nomy point is not about who we should cop. It is distinctly whether we should discuss.
i gave what i considered the pros and cons of discussion.

I also said lets figure out how to bring this situation toward town as much as possible.
If you think that wifom between mafia and doc is the best answer, then that is your contribution to the discission, not the number one solution.

It is a good idea that is dependent on having a doc, and several other factors like mafia only having a vote to influence with.

You assume a lot of things in your argument.

Now ne a good llama and prove to me that there are other reasons for your vote.



the arguments of the person is likely to be killed or likely to be saved is more for who we should have as the cop target not the cop target alone.

As for reasons.

Back when you were claiming to be cop you told FF he had no vote because he was scum. Although it could be you making a mistake as town.  I see it more likely to be you trying to get the town to think that we shouldn't discuss who we want investigated.

Another reason was you had only one more vote than other players. I wanted there to be a more clear lead so I would take 2 vote/unvotes to make a tie.

And another was to see if anyone would bandwagon after my vote. Although I got a different result. FF unvoting you in a hurry. 



Vote: Time extension



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Prof fist I will talk of assumtion then I will put my argument in it's most basic form.
I assume sum have a say. I do this because of the wording of the OP. However even if I knew they had no say at all I would still want it discussed.
I assume a doc. Yes and so will scum. Unless you can prove to me that the scum know we have no doc while the rest of us are unsure I think it's a valid assumption. Scum will WIFORM about it doc or not.

Now my argument in it's most simple form. I gets people talking more and should make it easier to find scum.



Final-fan and Metalgear. I'll get to you guys later on. I just need to go somewhere important.



So I've made two assumptions about the NIV(Night Investigation Vote)

1) The investigator is at the mercy of the NIVs, based on the rule, "A Draw will give the investigator the posibility to choose his target freely, between the persons who got the most votes." If this isn't the case then there's really not much harm in speaking about who people should NIV for.

2) Mafia also have NIVs, based on the rule, "Missusing the nighttime investigation vote may result in losing the ability to vote, the investigator losing his investigative Ability or Mafia manipulating the vote completely." It certainly is possible they have no vote or only one collective vote, so I'll list the pros and cons for each scenario:

A) Mafia each get a NIV:

If there's no discussion then it is fairly likely that they can completely manipulate the vote already, agree on a target to vote for and also kill said target, thereby wasting the investigation.(unless a doc gets lucky and guesses the same target)

If we choose a single target and most townies actually go along with it, then mafia can't control the vote and town will decide who is investigated. Mafia could simply kill the target,(if Town of course) but a doc could also protect him. It becomes WIFOM of scum chancing a doc save or doc gambling on protecting someone not chosen.

If we choose a small pool of targets, then mafia can try to control the vote, but it isn't a certainty they will be able to. They can pool votes and try to kill their chosen target, but they may end up chosing wrong AND hitting the doc's chosen save, which would "confirm" the alignment of two players at once.

B) Mafia get a single NIV:

No discussion then there's no real drawback.(Compared to your typical cop choosing for themselves)

Same as above if we choose a single target.

Similar to above if we choose a small pool, but they'd have an even smaller chance of controlling the vote.

C) Mafia get no NIV:

No drawback for no discussion.

Still just WIFOM.

No chance of controlling vote and better odds of "confirming" two players if mafia try to eliminate someone in the pool.

 

Addressing Wonk&Vette's Points: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4328770

1. Vette's what if scenario has no relevance. The investigator can wish to scan one person all he wants, but it seems to be out of his hands unless there's a tie including that person. Discussing our choices or not has zero bearing on this.

2. Doc-fear is for scum to worry about. As Wonk just said, unless it is known that there isn't protection, then scum must worry about their kill potentially not going through.

3. As I show above, the number of NIVs that mafia has doesn't really change the optimal strategy. It would be a pretty broken mechanic if there are 3 mafia and they all have a NIV, but that's a matter of post-game discussion.

 

So, 2-man pool as Wonk suggests or 3-man? I'm thinking 2 is good if we no lynch or mislynch, but 3 is better if mafia is lynched since they'd have less control in the event that each gets a NIV.



spurgeonryan said:

You've called several people suspicious and said we should be voting, yet you haven't done so yourself. Why not?

On the other side, is/are there anyone you don't find suspicious?



Linkzmax said:
Busy ass day, but I see several are coming to the conclusion I did a day ago and frankly circle-talking otherwise.

I gotta get some food in me, but I'll outline pros and cons of options in a bit. Spoiler: I think a consensus on 2 or 3 people we all pledge(though free will is of course still given) to vote for is the best plan.

Also, day ends in about 12 hours and there's hardly even been a push for anyone's lynch yet. I think we're in need of the extension.

Vote: Time Extension
Should be 5 more votes needed
@Stefl, Are you/TOS going to be around for a hard deadline, or is it up to when one of you is around?

No this is no hard deadline, but I will try to be arround at the promised time and end the day, the day goes on until twilight is proclaimed or a hammer occured, though I will not cut off activity if there is any at evening/noon (depending on your timezone), by that I mean not a single person wanting to extend his monologue, but a conversation of a kind... though that would only last for some hours and would not extend the day endlessly...