badgenome said:
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The only problem with ethical consumerism is that it costs you money and status, because well for one, an ethical consumer would never buy anything from Apple.
How much of an impact is OWS having? | |||
Can't hear them over the sound of my Ferrari | 60 | 24.10% | |
Just a news story, no visible results | 82 | 32.93% | |
Helping change minds, it's a start | 68 | 27.31% | |
Change is on the horizon, just you wait | 27 | 10.84% | |
I feel the impact already | 6 | 2.41% | |
Can't hear them over the... | 6 | 2.41% | |
Total: | 249 |
badgenome said:
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The only problem with ethical consumerism is that it costs you money and status, because well for one, an ethical consumer would never buy anything from Apple.
Kasz216 said:
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Very true, and the fact that Apple is so beloved in OWS circles speaks volumes.
badgenome said:
Very true, and the fact that Apple is so beloved in OWS circles speaks volumes. |
The reason that the Nanny State is such a popular idea is that it gives people the ability to believe that they're making a difference without ever having to know, think about, understand or do anything ... No matter how much more effective it will be, spending the minimal amount of effort to look into the products they're buying to see if the companies that produce them share their values is beyond most of the OWS crowd.
Their support from Apple isn't even the thing that bothers me most about protestors like the OWS crowd ...
Brand name designer clothing tends to be produced in sweat-shops where people work in deplorable conditions for abysmal wages, and these sweat-shops (often) have some of the worst environmental practices, all to make the manufacturing costs as low as possible. These clothes are then sold with some of the largest mark-ups of any consumer good and the profits are then used to support a modern form of aristocracy that has a membership based on the most shallow of values and nepotism; and the sale of these clothes are driven by blind consumerism that is fed based on the opinions of corrupt insiders.
Or to put it another way, designer clothing is the purest symbol of everything anti-capitalists hate and you would expect them to reject the industry on principle. What you actually see in most of the protests are a bunch of spoiled rich kids dressed up in the "Young Radical" line of many big designer labels.
badgenome said:
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Thanks for the clarification here. I do believe there is a dire need for people in society to start a dialog about things. It looks like making ethical decisions has been totally phased out of buying decisions, to the extent now, that if anyone questions buying patterns they get read the riot act over this, "How dare you question what people do with their money?" I would agree here the best way for people to do things is vote with their feet. And I have stated that a society will get the economy it has, based on the values of the members in society.
badgenome said:
Very true, and the fact that Apple is so beloved in OWS circles speaks volumes. |
I would say the worshipping of Steve Jobs all over says a lot. Jobs turned a consumer brand into a religious thing, that activated the part of the brain tied to religion. And it would be a strong side of things that Occupy Wall Street kids failed to notice how deep it went.
In regards to the brand itself, I would say that blindly going Apple is a sign of maybe not the smartest choices one can make with their money. Also, when people go on a quest of some sort, they do fail to see the minutia in their big picture. But, I think it is important to note, not to simplify things, the main issue was over too much corporate influence over government, and not strictly hating all corporations themselves. It is easy to simplify things. I do think though, bringing expensive electronics to a park and expecting them to not be stolen is fairly stupid. Hey, this is what you get with college kids though.
HappySqurriel said:
The reason that the Nanny State is such a popular idea is that it gives people the ability to believe that they're making a difference without ever having to know, think about, understand or do anything ... No matter how much more effective it will be, spending the minimal amount of effort to look into the products they're buying to see if the companies that produce them share their values is beyond most of the OWS crowd. Their support from Apple isn't even the thing that bothers me most about protestors like the OWS crowd ... Brand name designer clothing tends to be produced in sweat-shops where people work in deplorable conditions for abysmal wages, and these sweat-shops (often) have some of the worst environmental practices, all to make the manufacturing costs as low as possible. These clothes are then sold with some of the largest mark-ups of any consumer good and the profits are then used to support a modern form of aristocracy that has a membership based on the most shallow of values and nepotism; and the sale of these clothes are driven by blind consumerism that is fed based on the opinions of corrupt insiders. Or to put it another way, designer clothing is the purest symbol of everything anti-capitalists hate and you would expect them to reject the industry on principle. What you actually see in most of the protests are a bunch of spoiled rich kids dressed up in the "Young Radical" line of many big designer labels. |
Today, youth are not challenged to go and make a brighter future. They have been fed a line about being good consumers, and getting a good job, settling down, having the house and evermore (just play by the rules and things will work themselves out). Find peace in owning the best brands. Get religious devotion to corporate logos. That is the life fed, but now it is backfiring and the youth are now feeling they had been played by promises not delivered. Occupy does offer a chance at the big picture, even if on personal level it is missing, and they don't even know what Ad Busters is into.
I am reminded of this music video when discussing this:
richardhutnik said:
Today, youth are not challenged to go and make a brighter future. They have been fed a line about being good consumers, and getting a good job, settling down, having the house and evermore (just play by the rules and things will work themselves out). Find peace in owning the best brands. Get religious devotion to corporate logos. That is the life fed, but now it is backfiring and the youth are now feeling they had been played by promises not delivered. Occupy does offer a chance at the big picture, even if on personal level it is missing, and they don't even know what Ad Busters is into. I am reminded of this music video when discussing this:
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I think it is much simpler than that ...
When you look at the Occupy Wall Street protestors (or any major progressive protest for the past 30+ years) you see a common profile emerge. Mostly young white people with a (often advanced) degrees in the humanities, social sciences, or arts who have never worked a "real" job in their life and yet have a remarkable collection of expensive luxury items and have traveled extensively. Essentially, they're the children of upper middle class households and they have lived a sheltered life and been supported by their parents their entire lives.
Their political beliefs, like the Che Guevara shirt and/or Guy Fawkes mask they wear, are a fashion statement not a true expression of any real values they hold. Much like their adoption of one fad after another through their childhood, the causes they support are at attempt to increase social status with their peers and they have no real attachment to the cause itself. In 5 years these political beliefs will be about as much use to these individuals as their "Vote For Pedro" T-Shirt is today.
In order to maintain the effort required to act in a way that is consistent with your values and beliefs, you actually have to hold those values and beliefs in high enough regard that you're willing to make sacrifices in order to maintain integrity. These protestors have not been brainwashed to act in a hypocritical way, they're simply shallow posers who get rewarded when they jump from cause to cause by people who are simply unwilling to call them out for what they are.
richardhutnik said:
I would say the worshipping of Steve Jobs all over says a lot. Jobs turned a consumer brand into a religious thing, that activated the part of the brain tied to religion. And it would be a strong side of things that Occupy Wall Street kids failed to notice how deep it went. |
Yeah, I remember that study. Not that anyone who hangs around video game forums would be surprised to see that brand loyalty can inspire religious like devotion, but it was still pretty funny to see it proven by science that fanboyism is essentially a religion.
I've always wondered how Apple would fare without Jobs and his evangelical press conferences, so it should be interesting to see what happens. It's quite an accomplishment that he was able to have been one of the most ruthless CEOs on the plaent and still retain that pot-smoking hippie image and the hipster credibility that comes along with it. It's also a commentary about just how shallow most people are. "Down with corporate greed! (Unless I like the aesthetic sensibilities of your product line!)"
HappySqurriel said: The reason that the Nanny State is such a popular idea is that it gives people the ability to believe that they're making a difference without ever having to know, think about, understand or do anything ... No matter how much more effective it will be, spending the minimal amount of effort to look into the products they're buying to see if the companies that produce them share their values is beyond most of the OWS crowd. Their support from Apple isn't even the thing that bothers me most about protestors like the OWS crowd ... Brand name designer clothing tends to be produced in sweat-shops where people work in deplorable conditions for abysmal wages, and these sweat-shops (often) have some of the worst environmental practices, all to make the manufacturing costs as low as possible. These clothes are then sold with some of the largest mark-ups of any consumer good and the profits are then used to support a modern form of aristocracy that has a membership based on the most shallow of values and nepotism; and the sale of these clothes are driven by blind consumerism that is fed based on the opinions of corrupt insiders. Or to put it another way, designer clothing is the purest symbol of everything anti-capitalists hate and you would expect them to reject the industry on principle. What you actually see in most of the protests are a bunch of spoiled rich kids dressed up in the "Young Radical" line of many big designer labels. |
The ubiquity of Che Guevara t-shirts kinda says it all, huh? It has always seemed to me that the modern leftist is stuck in a perpetual state of rebellion against his or her parents, and capitalism is just a stand-in for mom and dad.