Well I know when to call it quits...My computer crashed looking up articles on damage. I'll re-look up some articles, but from what I read, there is a lack of mechanical damage.

"What is more nagging however is the contradictions we find the game when you consider that the developer positions this game as a driving simulator. I am referring to the lack of realistic damage modelling, the lack of mechanical damage (meaning that if you crash your car, the performance is affected according to the damage) and the absence of consequences for cutting corners and deviating from the track. Some of these features are available in multiplayer mode (like the penalties for cutting corners), while others were added through downloadable patches (mechanical damage) while yet others were always present but never properly implemented (damage modelling).  For a game billing itself as “the ultimate driving simulator” this seems like a huge contradiction and it simply takes away from the experience as well as the credibility of the franchise......For some bizarre reason rally cars adhere to a different standard of physics as they display a much higher degree of damage modelling than other vehicles. Inconsistent and disappointing, Gran Turismo definitely does not deliver on the promise of realistic damage modelling." Game Usagi

"The damage model itself is an obviously welcome addition, but somewhat limited. There is no actual deformation of the cars taking place – body panels remain totally pristine. Instead the Sabura is outfitted with a number of removable parts: front and rear bumpers, doors, the bonnet – these are the elements of the vehicle that work loose then fly away leaving just the barebones of the car. In this sense it is somewhat "last gen", very similar to Burnout 3 if you're looking for a direct comparison" Eurogamer

Like I said, damage is limited to costmetic elements. No articles I find online specifically state that GT5 has a real time mechanical damage model. Kazunori Yamauchi himself only said that there is a real time tire deformation model, but never ever stated a real time mechanical damage simulation model. Anyone who has played GT5 should be able to see this.

Also the costmetic damage in GT5 is also fake too. It's done by a process called Decal Tessellation..

"It’s was clear that Gran Turismo 5 had implemented a rarely used feature called Decal Tessellation. Without going into too much detail, the idea behind this technique is to take a displacement map texture, project it onto geometry - just like a decal – and tessellate the geometry in real time so that the displaced geometry looks like physical damage to the vehicle. Plain and simple, mimicking realistic damage on the fly." Lens of Truth (GT5 vs. Forza 3)

Sorry ethomaz. The main difference in damage between GT5 and GT5P seems to be that GT5 has real time tire deformation. That's it.

Anyway I'm not. I made my thread killers, and people are still whining because they can't accept Forza 4 as a game of similar quality to GT5.

Am I asking for too much from GT5 players only? Not asking them to accept Forza 4 is better, just as good. Plain and simple...

What You said before: "GT5 blows Forza out the water when it comes down to what matters in a sim"

"So to sum up, not only does Forza NOT provide a better experience than GT5 it doesn't even provide a comparable one" in this format too.

Me:I have yet to,read a single GT5 supporter say Forza 4 is a great sim of similar quality to GT5, why is that?

because it's not...

...

No... You have not advocated AT ALL, that Forza 4 is a game of similar quality to GT5. Not at all. Ontop of that, you consider me unreasonable when I claim that despite personally thinking Forza 4 is much better then GT5.

geezzz louise... The contradictions you make.

You know if you hit a wall at 100 you are completely done in F4. That was very poor representation of damage for GT5..I highly doubt it's that bad.That looked like car damage not mechanical damage.

You see the little car diagram to the right of the video? Each individual part can get damaged realistically from crashes. 

Asthetic damage on the other hand is still underwhelming IMO. It's not bad but it could be much better.

No point in arguing about crash damage, both are completely unrealistic.
Look up some race crash videos, only burnout comes close. You crash, you are out of the race.

I wish night racing would look like this in GT5. It's a nice addition but it's a bit too dark for my taste, GT5 does not model reflective road paint or reflective signs making it very hard to follow the road at times.

Neither game models cars catching air.

I personally think a time penalty system works better online then performance penalty. The time penalty only effects the person who made the mistake (ideally) and also catches people that cut corners. It's far from perfect in GT5 though, wall riding still happens, and you can end up with a corner cut penalty after someone else forces you off the road. It's still better imo then being forced into a wall and having to complete the race with your car pulling to one side due to a broken wheel.

You're best off with a strict host that boots people who drive recklessly on purpose.

Fair enough.

My point instead was that in a sim you don't necessarily need to licence the current season, you can simulate previous seasons (and most probably it costs a lot less, while current season licence must be quite expensive, we usually see it in dedicated F1-only racing sims, not diluted with other championships and formulas in generalistic racing sims). Obviously to do it well you need all the cars and all the tracks of the desired season, otherwise you can just simulate single races and qualifying laps, so I understand your point put this way. And "retired F1 cars" or "old F1 cars" definitions are just fine, it's what they actually are, while "not F1 cars anymore" didn't satisfy me.   

That's not true as far as F4 is concerned. Look at my post up above. Basically if you damage your engine enough to make the diagram red (a 100 MPH+ crash should do it) you are completly done in the race. You won't go past 10 MPH for the rest of the game. I do however wish that you could completely blow your engine in F4 so you are dead in the water but alas that's not the case. Also the asthetic damage is quite lacking in F4 IMO.

I believe there is a division of motorsport that takes retired F1 cars, and uses them. Forget the name, but I agree I should have just refered to the retired F1 cars in GT5 as...retired F1 cars. I admit I was too critical of retired F1 cars in GT5.

Problem with your point about using old season cars is that GT5 still doesn't have the whole grid, and some cars still cost a lot to licence, even when old. Ferrari for example, I could imagine costing a few dozen arms, legs, and maybe a torso or two, but Honda and Lotus, maybe just some guys finger.

I want to add a few more options to the list. I will add Spec B racing, and only give GT5 a point (even though you can hire a driver in GT5). That should make the score dead even, and furthur my point about both being content crammed games, of similar status.

Anything else I should add? Pro GT or Pro Forza?

Turn 10 aims to get damage modelled accuratly, but it's limited because you can't deform the chasis of the car, only the panels. So far small scale impacts, it's great, but big ones it's not. Also to be fair, damage in GT5 and Forza 4 is scaled back a bit to make the game funner. Hit a wall head on at 30km/h in real life, and your car probably isn't going to drive the same, but in both games you only get minor damage.

GRID actually has the best damage model, and they try to be a sim. GRID also has the best AI, but they are far too agressive for real world driving. However I just don't feel the quality in CodeMasters games. I hear F1 2010/2011 is different though.

Really? Even not being able to move much at all would be considered minor damage?

A 100mph+ crash usually doesn't leave your car in any moveable condition. Yes F4 goes a bit further with damage but it's still far too forgiving, at least from what I see on that video and my experience with the demo.

You can damage your engine too in GT5 btw, although it doesn't limit you to 10 mph, even running out of gas still lets you go 50mph. It doesn't really matter in the end, the handling gets really bad from damaged wheels long before your engine goes, you won't stand a chance of winning the race. Making your way to the pit becomes a long struggle.

The damage in GT5 is more of a penalty system. It's mostly used on low online, meaning it regenerates after 15 seconds. To deter wall riders, but not take you completely out of the race when you make a mistake. Races with permanent damage are the most boring with people usually quiting out after a crash.

I rather not race with damage anyway, in my experience people use it to their advantage to take other people out. Usually with a slight nudge to send someone into a wall. It would be better if they keep improving the time penalty system and tell you who is in the wrong according to racing regulations in case of a collision.