This post is intended to shut goforgold up. I'm stoping this thread 1 user at a time. My goal here is to show that both GT5 and Forza 4 are loaded with unique and exclusive content that would make race car sim enthusiasts want both games in roughly equal proportions. If either game has a few more traits then the other, who cares! The number of pros each game has is about the same.

Every + each game gets is based off facts. Nothing subjective such as quality of the sim, or quality of the graphics will be included. For arguement perposed premium cars will be considered on par with Forza 4 cars, and tracks will be considered on par as well. I will include a second tally in a second post showing how most users on this thread think Forza 4 looks better, but for this post, graphics are the same (it will can out in both games anyway.

Anyway.. Lets start:

Cars:

GT5 has more total cars

Forza 4 has more premium model cars.

Manufacterers (Real manufacters only): GT5 - 76, Forza 4 - 79 (plus the warthog lol) - tie(Note: Tuning companies do no count as manufacterers. A AMG modified Benz is still an AMG, a Nismo tuned Nissan is still a Nissan, a Mugen tuned Honda is still a Honda. Forza lists tuner cars under parent companies so even if I counted tuners seperatly Forza would still be about the same.

Cars from Japan/Korea, GT5 has 635/1031 cars from this region. Forza 4 - 120/530

Cars from USA: GT5 - 88, Forza 4 - 128

Cars from Italy: GT5 - 50, Forza 4 - 65

Cars from Germany: GT5 - 95, Forza 4 - 101 tie 5% difference, big whoop.

Those 4 regions roughly split the bulk of world automotive sales, and are where most sports cars originate from. Britain, Sweden, France, etc are all small regions, so other smaller european regions will be combined. Total will not add up because tiny regions like Australia are not accounted for.

Cars from the rest of Europe: GT5 - 105, Forza 4 - 86

Distribution of Cars: GT5- 61.6% Japan/Korean, 10.2% Other/Europe, 9.2% Germany 8.1% USA, 4.8% Italy.

Forza 4- 24.2% USA, 22.6% Japan/Korea, 19.1% Germany, 16.2% Other/Europe, 12.3% Italy.

Car types:

Rally - Both have them tie

Nascar - GT5 has more, and NASCAR is more integrated

Go-Karts - GT5 only

Group C Race Cars - both, tie

German Touring Cars - Forza 4 has more, not going to count, but you already said agreed goforgold

F1 - GT5 has old unlicence F1 cars

Le Mans Prototypes - Forza 4 has significantly more

Race modified cars total (GT1, GT2, RM) - GT5 - 75, Forza 4 - 80. tie the difference is small.

Features:

Rain, Snow, and other weather effects  GT5 (weight 2-Rain/Snow)

Night Racing - GT5

Dynamic Sun - GT5

Dynamic tire deformation model - Forza 4

Simulation Damage Modeling - Forza 4 (GT5 has a penaly system, not an active simulation damage model due to copyrights)

Cosmetic Damage Modeling - tie, both have it

Tracks and Track types:

Number of Tracks - 26 for both tie

Number of Variations - Forza 4 has over 100, GT5 has something like 70/80

Dirt Tracks - GT5

City Tracks - tie both games have them (Forza 4 does have one, but I forget the name. It's the coastal city in itally).

Race Types:

24 Hour Endurance Races - GT5

Season Mode - Forza 4

Total Event Count - Forza 4 has 140 I believe. GT5 has 63 + a few Specials

Point to Point Rally - GT5

Point to Point Track Racing - Forza 4

Licence Testing - GT5 I would give this feature 2 weight just because it's pretty awesome, but Forza 4 does offer hints in game as well. So 1 weight, like everything else.

Drift Trials - tie Both games have this feature. In fact there was an achievement in Forza 3 for completing a race with 100,000 Kudos (which means drifting an entire lap on Nurburgring or Mt. Fuji).

Miscellaneous/Car Culture:

Top Gear Integration - Forza 4 as narraration by Clarkson, as well as multiple game types suggested by the crew of Top Gear, but both have the Top Gear Track.

Accessibility for newcomers - Forza 4 has autobrake and rewind for young gamers, and casual newcomers

Track Creator - GT5

Leveling Syste w/ Rewards - tie

Car Affinities - Forza 4, but Zero weight. Only a feature appreciated by hardcore players.

Paint Editor - Forza 4

Auction House - tie

Dyno Test - Forza 4, but again zero weight

Amount of Online play, and Integration of Online features and leaderboards - Forza 4. GT5 only has a few race types, ghosts, and leaderboard per track per race type. Forza 4 has all that along with fun game modes (like Cat & Mouse), and Rivals Mode.

AutoVista Mode - Forza 4

Museum Mode - GT5

Total: GT5: 16 Forza 4: 19 tie: 9

As you see. Both games have a lot of features the other games lack. Both games have their own highlights.

Now stubborn people of this thread. Accept other people (not most, not a few, just other people) prefer either GT5 or Forza 4. Accept that both games are amazing (I don't want to hear any more BS like one game is lacking features, content, or anything), and move on.

Next post will tally the results of this thread. Who, and how many people, think which game looks and sound better, which games have those voters actually played.

goforgold I expect to hear no more on this subject from you.

If I missed any categories, or features. Quote this and tell me what I missed. I will repost and add it, unless it's something whcih is opinion based (physics, sim quality, etc), or really silly.

Post like this are what tells me I've won the debate. When the other user resorts to insults, i usually means he/she is incapable of continuing the debate. From experience on this website, this is often followed with RAGE, then banning. I think I have had 6 or 7 people banned debating with me because I am capable of staying cool, civil, and respectable. I actally started to make a list of people who were banned debating against me.

It just shows you how incapable some users are to participating in a civil debate. When some people have made an incorrect post, they can't take it back, append it, or even admit they were wrong. They fight to the end until their opinions are accepted as fact.

Now....this opens some of the angrier posts to quote the above and say that's me, but do I ever insult or critisize GT5? Do I ever call it a crappy game? From the start I have recognized it's a great sim. Same with Forza. My bias is trying to get other people to realize that GT isn't the god all sim it used to be, but not to tell people it's a bad game. GT5 was the worst GT game since, well GT1 (GT1 wasn't that great of a game, only had 25 cars), and Forza 4 is the best Forza yet. Both franchises are at end, and people should realize, they both offer a similar level of quality, refinement, and content to the table.

^^That was.....great. (refering to your huge post)

goforgold said: Michael-5 said: ethomaz said: Looks like @Michael-5 not played GT5 after all Don't even joke, I gave you 2 cars in GT5 because you were stuck. goforgold GT5 doesn't have LMP1 or LMP2 cars to buy, I think GT1 and GT2 cars have to be modified from stock cars (can't buy them straight) and over 100 Nissans, but only 12 Ferrarri, 7 Lamborghini's, and 19 BMW's? WOW okay, so GT5 is king of ricers? (joking) Of all the cars in GT5, how many originate from Japan (number and percentage)? Now ask yourself, is this a good representation and spread of sports cars over the world? As for F1, if the car is 1-4 years old, it wouldn't qualify for Formula 1 anymore. What's the race type for old F1 cars? There is a different name for it. Kart racing in GT5 is 1 special event, and it takes 20 minutes to complete. Yes man F1 race drivers started with go karts, but more and more professional race drivers are starting with racing sims now. Having baby features like autobrake and rewind helps get young (like real young) gamers into auto racing. Don't laugh at 1, but then take the other so seriously. PGR arguement is just to show you how little weather means to a racing sim... LOL about night! yes, GT2 also had damage, and then GT3 and GT4 (the two best games of the GT franchise) had neither night, nor damage. Are they pathetic? Geez man every chance you get you rip on Forza, and you think your fair? Forza 4 has endurance races, I'm just not sure how long they are. Turn 10 limited endurance races to 1 hour before, and man that's a lot. If you can play a 24 hour endurance race in 1 shot, then you should own both games. Point to Point Rally - I read Point to Point Races. No Forza doesn't have Point to Point Rally, but GT5 doesn't have on track (or Fuji), point to point races. Forza 3 and Forza 4 have a whole section of the game dedicated to drifting. It's likely under Rivals section. When I said track variants, I meant of the 26 tracks in GT5, how many variants. And yes there are Group C, and Rally cars in Forza 4. I had to look up Group C, but it's there. As for the rest (gotta go so making it fast). There is no simulation damage in GT5, it's a penatly system, car affinities are an extension to the leveling system, GT5 copied Forza's leveling system and only rewards you scarsly, no dyno test, no paint editor, no Clarkson, limited online game types (Forza 4 has a lot more fun types for online play), half the premium cars as in Forza 4, less track varients (over 100 in Forza 4 GT5 is like 70-80), no career mode... So there are just as many if not more no's in GT5 as in Forza 4. You proved jack all, I'll go with the reviews, and the opinions of those who played both games thank you. Ok so I've rested and now am ready to respond to this steaming pile of crap you say GT5 dosen't have LMP cars, and this is assuming (which I know for a fact you don't know but for yo-johns sake) you know what a LMP car actually is tell me with your genisus and insight if the following AREN'T LMP cars what are they?? Looking into this, I am incorrect, but the number of LMP1 and LMP2 cars in GT5 is far inferrior to Forza 4. and you also say Forza 4 has Group C cars.....name ONE, that is again assuming (which a again I know you don't but for yo-johns sake) you know what the hell a group C car even is..... Peugot 905 you also say if an F1 car is an old F1 car it no longer counts as F1, and just to back that up, quoted from the post above: "As for F1, if the car is 1-4 years old, it wouldn't qualify for Formula 1 anymore. What's the race type for old F1 cars? There is a different name for it."- Micheal 5 and to answer your question it called FORMULA ONE or F1 for short, being an older model does NOT stop the car from Being F1 and the fact that you thought is was shows you complete lack of any knowledge and credibility on the subject like.....at all. F1 regulations get stricter every year. a 1200hp F1 car from 1998 would not qualify for F1 today, even though it's faster then a modern day F1 car because it doesn't meet the strict engine regulations of F1. Double spoilers, mandatory inclusion of regenerative flywheels and other hybrid features, etc, etc make old F1 cars, simply not F1 cars. It's like the Lotus F1 car in Top Gear. It doesn't meet F1 regulations, and is thus not an F1 car. Track Variants kinda back fired huh, what do you want a total count or something, be more specific "LOL about night! yes, GT2 also had damage, and then GT3 and GT4 (the two best games of the GT franchise) had neither night, nor damage. Are they pathetic? Geez man every chance you get you rip on Forza, and you think your fair?" GT3 and GT4 came out last gen, Forza 4 released last fucking WEEK, I mean seriously man My point was, just because a 20 year old game has x features, doesn't mean a more modern game without them is pathetic. GT5, nor Forza have racing during storms, or icy road conditions, nor do they have as advanced of a damage modeling system as GRID. Are they pathetic? Taking your arguement along this path shows despiration. You are trying to make Forza 4 look like shit, and I plain just don't appreciate that. I would like to have a civil debate, so please give me one. about endurance races: Endurance are the closest thing we well ever get to knowing what's it's like to push not only our selves but our cars as well, to the limits of a professional race car driver, see Racing is more than just doing a few laps, things like pit stagey are entirely game changing in professional events and often determine the winner of a race. how can you get that with a race that last 10 minutes??? Forza 4 has endurance races. Many over an hour long. No 24 hours ones, I did add that to the tally. http://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-5-v1-03-update-now-available/ <-- simulation damage so my A SPEC and B SPEC level increasing in GT4 last gen on the ps2 wasn't a leveling system.....hmmm the more you know no paint editor *who gives a fuck Don't let your opinions change fact. Many of the paints synthesized in Forza games have been used on real world race cars. This is part of car culture, and GT5/Forza 4 are more then just games. They are representations of car culture as well. no Clarkson *a- WAIT............. no Clarkson......did you really just say no fucking Clarkson, GT5 is less of a racing sim because Jeremy Clarkson Narrates Forza 4 Top Gear is the biggest product related to racing....please, enough with the childish pictures.Don't present your opinions as what the concensus words cannot begin to describe the fail, you have completely transcended the realms reality into pure and utter delusion, your complete lack of knowledge, blatant misinformation, and extreme bias has not just robbed you of credibility but of any bit of logic and sense you may have left on the matter. To say GT5 doesn't have things that are in the opening cinematic....how....how can someone be as clueless as you, you say you've played GT5 yet continuously spit out blatant misinformation, while simultaneously parading yourself around as the "reasonable" one is almost as laughable as it is sad, until one realizes your serious, and then it's just sad. Seriously I don't know what to tell you man

Seriously...You finish with more insults? Keep this up, and I just won't reply to you. I'm fairly certain if you keep it up, they will ban you eventually. It's not within forum rules to make fun of other users.

I know. You said some GT5 standard cars lok better then Forza 4 cars. People showed you how incredibly wrong you were with this.

Are you still pushing this? Common, this is trolling and you know it.

Yep in my experience when people get beaten in a debate 1 of 3 things will happen.

Either (1) They will admit you are right and everybody goes on their happy way...this is the least common event. (2) They will not respond anymore....this is probably the most common thing people will do. Or (3) They will resort to insults.

I really liked your tally post up above. For a while there you were getting dragged into it pretty bad and IMO you could have handled it much better but I do understand how people react when they get frustrated, it's happened to me on more than 1 occasion.

Oh and let your user tally thing show that I don't really have much of an opinion of GT5 because I haven't played it, so I guess put me down as neutral or something like that for which one I think is better.

Ahhh, finally......

/thread

Next post. A tally of this threads results. (Which game has better graphics/sound according to the votes by VGC members).

Note: Others are users who haven't stated which games they played.

Forza 4 has better graphics & sound:

Users who have played both games: Michael-5, selnor, Nsanity

Users who have played Forza 4: Mohasus

Users who have only played GT5: plsee

Others: Cirio, smroadkill15, chapset, chrisinthehouse, RolStoppable, Dodece, ZaneWane, welshbloke, SpartenOmega117, forest-spirit, Chirizm,

GT5 has better graphics & sound:

Users who have played GT5: goforgold

Others: x_DMX_x, APKenna

Forza 4 has better graphics only, GT5 has better sound:

No one voted this option

GT5 has better graphics only, Forza 4 has better sound:

Others: Marks

Forza 4 has better graphics (no input on sound):

Users who have played both games: Badassbab

Users who haven't played either: Rainbird

Others: phinch1, kiefer23, JamaicameCRAZY, nightsurge, Andrespetmonkey, Machina (However I think he has played both), DirtyP2002, worldlyfall, miz1q2w3e

GT5 has better graphics (no input on sound):

Others: 4k1x3r, spurgeonryan, Booh!

Forza 4 has better sound (no input on graphics):

Users who have played both games: WhiteDevil

Others: kowenicki, Mummelmann, wick,

GT5 has better sound (no input on graphics):

Users who have only played GT5: ethomaz (Graphics: GT5 has better cars, Forza has better tracks), Aldro (same graphics arguement as ethomaz)

Others: MARCUSDJACKSON (but he did agree about Forza 4 being King)

Both games look and sound about the same:

Users who have played both games: enrageorrange, darklich13

Users who have only played Forza 4: yo_john117

Others: Level1Death, d0nni3, Troll_Whisperer, pezus (says pros and cons for both), Scoobes (pros/cons), ClassicGammingWizz, Reasonable, iWarMachine (pros/cons)

P.S. Thanks yo_john. I hope these two posts shut up all the over the top strong fans. Both games are excellent, and it doesn't matter if Forza 4 has better graphics/sound. The difference is minor, and many people can be fooled to which game is which in comparision videos.

Concluding remarks.

Lets see what we can take from this.

Not a single person claimed who played both GT5 and Forza 4 claimed GT5 graphics or sounds were better.

27 users said Forza 4 has better graphics, compared to only 7 for GT5, and 11 say it's about a draw.

21 users said Forza 4 has better sound, compared to only 6 for GT5, and 11 say it's about a draw.

So pezus most people think GT5 looks better?

I'm Crazy AHAHAHAHAHAHA....never again, I'm done with GT/Forza comparisions, your all crazy for bothing with this......

So now.... I have shown you, both games are abundant in features, and that more people on this thread think Forza 4 looks and sounds better then GT5.

Does anyone care still? GT5 is an awesome game, so what if the graphics/sounds are slightly better then GT5's? GT5 is a year old game, this makes sense. The fact that it holds up to Forza 4 shows quality.

Only thing not adressed in physics....but I have no conclusive method of measureing that. I will say that from my experience on track, bot have flaws. The above video of GT5 shows an impossible feat (suspensions will crumble), but at the same time Forza also isn't perfect. Physics will only improve next gen, and the gen after that.

No more hate.....No more hate...

/thread.

These games must be very boring when you spend so much time arguing about them instead of playing them.

Those posts, were end all comments. I'm going to be playing these games now, these comparision threads have taken too much of my time.