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Forums - Politics - Wall Street Protests

badgenome said:
HappySqurriel said:

I don't want to be rude, but it seems that kids today are suffering because they're making very bad educational choices and are unwilling to own up to their part in this, consider the following graph

I suppose it's the whole phenomenon of American students falling behind students in other countries in math, science, etc., but excelling at self-esteem coming home to roost. Nothing in these people's lives is their own fault. If there is a unifying message behind Occupy Everything, it seems to be, "We played by the rules, we were told all we had to do was go to college and we'd be set for life, so it must be that we're being screwed." So Joe Therrien figures a degree in puppetry (not even puppetry of the penis, Joe? what a miserable slacker you are) is just as good as a degree in, say, civil engineering, and he's just as entitled to the good life as anyone because he went before the high priests of higher education and was credentialed by them.

If an industry is requiring people to take out loans that are increasingly getting to be the size of a mortgage, what does one expect the industry to do?  Well, they increase the pitching of this BS and raising expectations.  These expectations become cultural norms, and act as a form of zero-point economic polution.  They also ride past trends.

When someone plays by the rules to meet socially expected norms, to obtain what was promises, this is being responsible.  That is all someone can do.  And in this economy, when the hiring isn't there, basket weaving can end up being worth as much as civil engineering.  Actually, basket weaving could be worth more, if the individual makes awesome baskets and knows how to market them, in contrast to the person trained in civil engineering who faces the reality of budget cuts by government, so they don't bother to hire anyone to design any new projects because the funding isn't there.  Also, if it involves anything that can be done over the internet, they will battle against an entire global market.



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richardhutnik said:

If an industry is requiring people to take out loans that are increasingly getting to be the size of a mortgage, what does one expect the industry to do?

Why are all the protests directed at industry, and not a single one is aimed at the universities who charge an exorbitant amount for a degree of questionable value?



badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

If an industry is requiring people to take out loans that are increasingly getting to be the size of a mortgage, what does one expect the industry to do?

Why are all the protests directed at industry, and not a single one is aimed at the universities who charge an exorbitant amount for a degree of questionable value?

So, do you want to organize an "Occupy Colleges" movement?  The thing is that, colleges still have an association as being a good thing, rather than a tool used to get people indebted.  

There is stuff like this though:

http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2011/11/02/466485usstudentdebt_ap.html

But, I would agree here there needs to be more focused on colleges being better at training people for the job market.  Demand colleges also provide certification for students.  There should be more ire thrown at the colleges that sold them the bill of goods.  I also say to target the enables, which includes Sallie Mae.  

I will get back to my earlier point.  In a relatively free society, if a society has dumb values the outcome of that society will reflect these values and all the negative consequences.



A society that lies to itself on a mass scale will end up being hit in the face with economic realities:



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badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

If an industry is requiring people to take out loans that are increasingly getting to be the size of a mortgage, what does one expect the industry to do?

Why are all the protests directed at industry, and not a single one is aimed at the universities who charge an exorbitant amount for a degree of questionable value?

Because they aren't so much mad that they were lied to as they are mad that the lie isn't true.

It would be like being told Santa Claus isn't real as a kid, and not being mad or upset at your parents for lying but being mad at the Macy's Santa for not shelling out for gifts for you.

I'm not even sure it's a "Lie" though.

All I was ever told about college is that if you get a degree is SOMETHING then you are much more likely to get a job.

Which is true, look at the comparative unemployment rates.

If anything I think i'd blame it more on "immortality" syndrome.  I forget what it's really called, but in general the belief that all bad things happen to other people and everything will work out for you because you view yourself as special.

It's like when people who love music and start a band complain because the "music industry is keeping them down and letting no talent hacks make music."



Occupy DC protesting in front of Sallie Mae:
http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/10/28/356492/sallie-mae-locks-out-protesters/



Kasz216 said:
badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

If an industry is requiring people to take out loans that are increasingly getting to be the size of a mortgage, what does one expect the industry to do?

Why are all the protests directed at industry, and not a single one is aimed at the universities who charge an exorbitant amount for a degree of questionable value?

Because they aren't so much mad that they were lied to as they are mad that the lie isn't true.

It would be like being told Santa Claus isn't real as a kid, and not being mad or upset at your parents for lying but being mad at the Macy's Santa for not shelling out for gifts for you.

I'm not even sure it's a "Lie" though.

All I was ever told about college is that if you get a degree is SOMETHING then you are much more likely to get a job.

Which is true, look at the comparative unemployment rates.

If anything I think i'd blame it more on "immortality" syndrome.  I forget what it's really called, but in general the belief that all bad things happen to other people and everything will work out for you because you view yourself as special.

It's like when people who love music and start a band complain because the "music industry is keeping them down and letting no talent hacks make music."


The lies are like this:

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/214426/20110915/unemployment-jobs-economy-college-graduate.htm

The shorthand report over and over and over again is that a B.S degree will make you do better.  It doesn't differentiate between what degree either.   And while what you can say is 100% true, it doesn't mean there aren't other problems also contributing to things.  And yes, people want the lie to be true, because it is comforting to know that it is true.



richardhutnik said:

So, do you want to organize an "Occupy Colleges" movement?  The thing is that, colleges still have an association as being a good thing, rather than a tool used to get people indebted.  

It would certainly make more sense than the current Occupy movement.

And I agree that these kids still see college as a Good Thing. That's part of the problem, and that's why it's highly unlikely universities will ever draw their ire. Not coincidentally, it's also where they've gotten most of their dumb ideas about the world.



Kasz216 said:

Because they aren't so much mad that they were lied to as they are mad that the lie isn't true.

I think so. Since this thing began, I've gotten the distinct impression that a lot of these people aren't protesting the state of things so much as they are railing against reality itself.