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Forums - Politics - Millionaire tax! America only for now, so the rest of you millionaires in other coutries are safe!!!

Tagged games:

 

Hi Vgchartz millionairre! Do you want extra taxes?

Yes 31 54.39%
 
No 16 28.07%
 
I get paid in gum. 5 8.77%
 
(recycle) I am a meat popcycle. 5 8.77%
 
Total:57
Kantor on 20 September 2011
Rath said:
Kantor said:
This will never pass a Republican congress.

It's populism at its very worst. Obama understands that he's done a pretty worthless job as President so far, and he needs to drum up support from the left so they don't go vote Nader or something.

Not everyone is as wealthy as Warren Buffett. The top 0.5% of America is significantly richer than the second 0.5%. Most of the money paid in by these people will never be seen by them again in any form.

You can't force the very wealthiest people to pay exorbitant tax rates, because they will just refuse. They'll move elsewhere, or hire yet more people to find loopholes. The only "solution" is to lump the entire middle class together and say they have become rich on the backs of the poor, to say that the majority of Americans are entitled to more than they currently get. It's a fantastic method of control.

Should he let the Bush tax cuts expire? Absolutely. Should he increase tax further? No. Should he go into this massive song and dance about it? No.


They won't be paying exorbitant tax rates. Most of them currently pay lower tax rates than people who earn less than them.

 

I really do agree with Obama on this one, while cutting expenses is necessary (and lets face it, some areas of your government are bloated enough that there could be significant savings) but if you're going to be serious about cutting the deficit then you need to raise revenues too.

Raising the top band tax rate is not going to change that.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

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Kantor on 20 September 2011
vlad321 said:
Kantor said:
crissindahouse said:
Kantor said:
This will never pass a Republican congress.

It's populism at its very worst. Obama understands that he's done a pretty worthless job as President so far, and he needs to drum up support from the left so they don't go vote Nader or something.

Not everyone is as wealthy as Warren Buffett. The top 0.5% of America is significantly richer than the second 0.5%. Most of the money paid in by these people will never be seen by them again in any form.

You can't force the very wealthiest people to pay exorbitant tax rates, because they will just refuse. They'll move elsewhere, or hire yet more people to find loopholes. The only "solution" is to lump the entire middle class together and say they have become rich on the backs of the poor, to say that the majority of Americans are entitled to more than they currently get. It's a fantastic method of control.

Should he let the Bush tax cuts expire? Absolutely. Should he increase tax further? No. Should he go into this massive song and dance about it? No.


see, that's just wrong. best example are some european countries like denmark. as an european from an eu-country you can live where you like in the eu but rich people in denmark still didn't leave the country to pay lower taxes elsewhere. (someone from denmark just would have to live in germany so maybe 50-200km away from denmark's biggest cities to pay lower taxes)

sure some will leave the country to do this but most won't because they know that it's unfair and they know that they have to help their country and that they will still be rich as hell or at least have enough money for the rest of their life. most rich aren't assholes if it comes to them to help.

the rich in denmark have to pay a lot more than the rich in the usa would have to pay if this will become true and a lot of them will live in denmark till they die.

It's not really fair to compare the American government, an inefficient and corrupt organisation at the best of times, to the best-run countries in the world.

When you know that every kroner you spend is going towards a worthwhile cause, and you know that nobody harbours any resentment for you for having money, you don't feel reluctant to give money to the government. When it is going on foreign invasions, benefit cheaters and free healthcare that you don't receive, well, that's where problems start to appear.


So instead of fixing the actual problem, government corruption, let's just not do shit?

Quite the opposite. Fixing government corruption should be a priority.

Giving the government an extra $700 billion to spend isn't a fantastic way of doing that though.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

Kasz216 on 20 September 2011
Ail said:
 


Once again the argument about leaving the country is a fallacy but not for the reasons most people have been using......

If you have over 100k of a revenue a year and give up your US citizenship for another one ( and you have to give it up, moving only doesn't do shit as US citizens are based on worldwide revenue) the IRS considers that you are trying to evade taxes and will still have you pay taxes for the next 10 years, even if you are no longer a US citizen .

Only on US earned income...

which, we're talking capital gains here.

Not US earned income.

The actual attempts at taxing world wide income by the government doesn't work that well because you can just take that as a tax credit agaisnt US owed taxes.



Kasz216 on 20 September 2011
Ail said:
Kasz216 said:
spurgeonryan said:

Wait? Millionaires pay less of a percent of there income than poorer people do! Is that what I am reading?

That's what your reading.... but it's not true.

It's a talking point created by conflating Income with Capital Gains.

 

One is a salary gained through working... in which the rich pay MUCH more.

The other, is a tax placed on investments, in which the rich ALSO pay MUCH more.

The diffrence is Rich people are more likely to make more money on investments then poor people, Therefore when the two are combined together they are being taxed  a "Lower percentage".

Aka, someone makes 10 dollars  through working and are taxed 20%.

VS someone who makes 10 dollars through working, and is taxed 20%, then makes 90 dollars through capital gains, and is taxed 10% on that... they're "only paying 15%"


 I pay a much higher amount of taxes then other people who make as much money as me using this same standard...  because I have money invested... that, even if you counted it as income wouldn't move me over to the next income bracket even though my captial gains bracket is higher then my income tax bracket, because actually, I don't have to pay ANY taxes outside of FICA or Social security.

I'm actually forced to pay MORE money for being responsible!

  Yet nobody cares about that, a case of the exact opposite happeneing... because it's not a way to target the rich.

 

 

However, the different tax rates exist for a number of good reasons.  To just list one (edit: Was wrong on number 2)

 

1)  Capital gains are much riskier.  If you work 40 hours a week, you are guranteed that money.  Capital Gains vary with the market, you could make a bunch of money only to lose it.


For tax purpose they are actually not that riskier as you can take advantage of capital losses to reduce your tax rate ( don't sell during a bad market year, keep some investments around till the next year and then sell some of those loosing investments to offset any gain you might make that good year..


Except... you can't if the Buffet Rule passes... since you have to pay atleast a 25% or 28% tax rate.



Ail on 20 September 2011
Kasz216 said:
Ail said:
 


Once again the argument about leaving the country is a fallacy but not for the reasons most people have been using......

If you have over 100k of a revenue a year and give up your US citizenship for another one ( and you have to give it up, moving only doesn't do shit as US citizens are based on worldwide revenue) the IRS considers that you are trying to evade taxes and will still have you pay taxes for the next 10 years, even if you are no longer a US citizen .

Only on US earned income...

which, we're talking capital gains here.

Not US earned income.

The actual attempts at taxing world wide income by the government doesn't work that well.

Nope, on worldwide income, US isn't canada.

US citizens are taxed on worldwide income not US based income. And the US has agreements with most countries to help enforce this.

And the higher your revenue, the more the IRS monitors your tax declarations. Now you can always forget to declare income outside the US but if you get caught it's huge penalties and jail in some cases, really not worth it if you make that much money .



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

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Ail on 20 September 2011
Kasz216 said:
Ail said:
Kasz216 said:
spurgeonryan said:

Wait? Millionaires pay less of a percent of there income than poorer people do! Is that what I am reading?

That's what your reading.... but it's not true.

It's a talking point created by conflating Income with Capital Gains.

 

One is a salary gained through working... in which the rich pay MUCH more.

The other, is a tax placed on investments, in which the rich ALSO pay MUCH more.

The diffrence is Rich people are more likely to make more money on investments then poor people, Therefore when the two are combined together they are being taxed  a "Lower percentage".

Aka, someone makes 10 dollars  through working and are taxed 20%.

VS someone who makes 10 dollars through working, and is taxed 20%, then makes 90 dollars through capital gains, and is taxed 10% on that... they're "only paying 15%"


 I pay a much higher amount of taxes then other people who make as much money as me using this same standard...  because I have money invested... that, even if you counted it as income wouldn't move me over to the next income bracket even though my captial gains bracket is higher then my income tax bracket, because actually, I don't have to pay ANY taxes outside of FICA or Social security.

I'm actually forced to pay MORE money for being responsible!

  Yet nobody cares about that, a case of the exact opposite happeneing... because it's not a way to target the rich.

 

 

However, the different tax rates exist for a number of good reasons.  To just list one (edit: Was wrong on number 2)

 

1)  Capital gains are much riskier.  If you work 40 hours a week, you are guranteed that money.  Capital Gains vary with the market, you could make a bunch of money only to lose it.


For tax purpose they are actually not that riskier as you can take advantage of capital losses to reduce your tax rate ( don't sell during a bad market year, keep some investments around till the next year and then sell some of those loosing investments to offset any gain you might make that good year..


Except... you can't if the Buffet Rule passes... since you have to pay atleast a 25% or 28% tax rate.


Sure you can, even with the Buffet rule because offseting gains with losses doesn't reduce tax rate per say, it reduces income. The thing on which the 25-28% applies......



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

HappySqurriel on 20 September 2011
Ail said:
Kasz216 said:
spurgeonryan said:

Wait? Millionaires pay less of a percent of there income than poorer people do! Is that what I am reading?

That's what your reading.... but it's not true.

It's a talking point created by conflating Income with Capital Gains.

 

One is a salary gained through working... in which the rich pay MUCH more.

The other, is a tax placed on investments, in which the rich ALSO pay MUCH more.

The diffrence is Rich people are more likely to make more money on investments then poor people, Therefore when the two are combined together they are being taxed  a "Lower percentage".

Aka, someone makes 10 dollars  through working and are taxed 20%.

VS someone who makes 10 dollars through working, and is taxed 20%, then makes 90 dollars through capital gains, and is taxed 10% on that... they're "only paying 15%"


 I pay a much higher amount of taxes then other people who make as much money as me using this same standard...  because I have money invested... that, even if you counted it as income wouldn't move me over to the next income bracket even though my captial gains bracket is higher then my income tax bracket, because actually, I don't have to pay ANY taxes outside of FICA or Social security.

I'm actually forced to pay MORE money for being responsible!

  Yet nobody cares about that, a case of the exact opposite happeneing... because it's not a way to target the rich.

 

 

However, the different tax rates exist for a number of good reasons.  To just list one (edit: Was wrong on number 2)

 

1)  Capital gains are much riskier.  If you work 40 hours a week, you are guranteed that money.  Capital Gains vary with the market, you could make a bunch of money only to lose it.


For tax purpose they are actually not that riskier as you can take advantage of capital losses to reduce your tax rate ( don't sell during a bad market year, keep some investments around till the next year and then sell some of those loosing investments to offset any gain you might make that good year..

Look at it another way ...

You're a venture capitalist and you invest $10 Million into a firm today, in 10 years you sell your investment for $11 Million, when factoring for inflation you lost money on the deal and your "earnings" were $100,000 per year; why should you pay the same tax rate as someone who earned $1 Million in income this year on this investment?



Ail on 20 September 2011
HappySqurriel said:
Ail said:
Kasz216 said:
spurgeonryan said:

Wait? Millionaires pay less of a percent of there income than poorer people do! Is that what I am reading?

That's what your reading.... but it's not true.

It's a talking point created by conflating Income with Capital Gains.

 

One is a salary gained through working... in which the rich pay MUCH more.

The other, is a tax placed on investments, in which the rich ALSO pay MUCH more.

The diffrence is Rich people are more likely to make more money on investments then poor people, Therefore when the two are combined together they are being taxed  a "Lower percentage".

Aka, someone makes 10 dollars  through working and are taxed 20%.

VS someone who makes 10 dollars through working, and is taxed 20%, then makes 90 dollars through capital gains, and is taxed 10% on that... they're "only paying 15%"


 I pay a much higher amount of taxes then other people who make as much money as me using this same standard...  because I have money invested... that, even if you counted it as income wouldn't move me over to the next income bracket even though my captial gains bracket is higher then my income tax bracket, because actually, I don't have to pay ANY taxes outside of FICA or Social security.

I'm actually forced to pay MORE money for being responsible!

  Yet nobody cares about that, a case of the exact opposite happeneing... because it's not a way to target the rich.

 

 

However, the different tax rates exist for a number of good reasons.  To just list one (edit: Was wrong on number 2)

 

1)  Capital gains are much riskier.  If you work 40 hours a week, you are guranteed that money.  Capital Gains vary with the market, you could make a bunch of money only to lose it.


For tax purpose they are actually not that riskier as you can take advantage of capital losses to reduce your tax rate ( don't sell during a bad market year, keep some investments around till the next year and then sell some of those loosing investments to offset any gain you might make that good year..

Look at it another way ...

You're a venture capitalist and you invest $10 Million into a firm today, in 10 years you sell your investment for $11 Million, when factoring for inflation you lost money on the deal and your "earnings" were $100,000 per year; why should you pay the same tax rate as someone who earned $1 Million in income this year on this investment?


You know if I'm a venture capitalist that invest 10 million$ in a firm, chances are I have more than 10 millions $ lying around ( or I'm the dumbest investor on the earth that puts all its eggs in one risky basket) and the rest of my money is invested too and bringing money in too...........



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

richardhutnik on 20 September 2011
thismeintiel said:

Yay! More class warfare.  That will surely fix everything and get you re-elected Obama. Oh wait, no it won't.

@ chocoloco

I wouldn't put too much merit in those polls. Especially since a Repulican just won a seat in New York (of all places) that had been held by Democrats for nearly 90 years.  In a district that is 3 to 1 in favor of Democrats.

Why the heck is it class warfare ONLY when it involves someone saying that those not in the upper class are getting the short end of the stick?  But if economic conditions result in the middle and lower class making NO progress, and the wealth accumulates predominantly at the top, that isn't class warfare?  If you have an economic system rigged so elites get bail outs, and people end up falling further behind, and dying without any health coverage, that isn't class warfare, but to bring it up is?

In short, it isn't class warfare, apparently, when it is only the lower classes that get the short end of the stick.  That is just thrown under "that is the price of freedom".



richardhutnik on 20 September 2011

And here is another thing that happens in these discussions: Workers are treated is hostages. Years of downsizing and shifting jobs off American shores is seen as just ducky. To make up for the loss of manufacturing jobs, there is talk of reclassifying the making of burgers at McDonalds as manufacturing. But then, the moment jobs are seen as a political issue, workers are treated as hostages. The cry is, "Gimmie my money, or the workers take a hit! You don't want these poor workers to lose their jobs, do you? If you don't give me my tax breaks, or leave my taxes where they are, these jobs go to China! You don't want that, do you?" Well, they get the tax breaks, and the jobs STILL go to China. And the basis of bailing out banks, loans to GM and so on were ALL based up talk of "You don't want MORE job losses, do you?"