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Forums - Sony - How many PS3 games actually use the Blu Ray storage?

Smidlee said:
One thing I noticed PS3 BR runs extremely quite. Also I love how in Uncharted there is no load times (actually loads as you go).

 It's quiet because it doesn't have to spin up to the speeds required for DVD to transfer a similar amount of data.



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Cryoakira,

Nope, it's hasen't been applied for games much, because procedural requires a high level of mastering and doesn't work with many games.


Such methods have been used extensively for creating many video games (and of course demoscene productions), where this development approach makes sense. PC examples of games using such methods include even ID software's and Valve's games, Oblivion is a better known example, but high quality audio and textures usually take up the bulk of data storage needed for modern games.

For example PS3 games like Unreal Tournament 3, Resistance: Fall of Man and Ratchet and Clank: Tools of Destruction use procedural methods for example through (but not exclusively) SpeedTree middlware:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeedTree

Why procedural methods always been used to design games?

1) (Can) Save development time.
2) (usually) Easier to create game diversity.
2) (usually) Results in filesize reductions.

"The earliest computer games were severely limited by memory constraints. This forced content like maps to be generated algorithmically on the fly: there simply wasn't enough space to store a large amount of pre-made levels and artwork. Pseudorandom number generators were often used with predefined seed values in order to create very large game worlds that appeared premade. For example, The Sentinel supposedly had 10,000 different levels stored in only 48 or 64 kilobytes. An extreme case was Elite, which was originally planned to contain a total of 248 (approximately 282 trillion) galaxies with 256 solar systems each. The publisher, however, was afraid that such a gigantic universe would cause disbelief in players, and eight of these galaxies were chosen for the final version.[1] Other notable early examples include the 1985 game Rescue on Fractalus that used fractal technology to procedurally create in real time the craggy mountains of an alien planet and River Raid, the 1982 Activision game that used a pseudorandom number sequence generated by a linear feedback shift register in order to generate a scrolling maze of obstacles."

The PS3 is a more powerful platform than the 360 for procedural synthesis as the device offers far more processing potential and of course the Blu-Ray drive additional space still offers a huge advantage as well. Procedural methods are nothing new, are widely used whenever it makes sense and the approach has its weakpoints (artist design freedom and burdening programmers more where artists have better expertise) and strongpoints.

Carmack (I often don't agree with this guy, at least with regard to assymetric multiprocessing, claims of not being able to port Doom to the Amiga while today not only Doom but also Quake runs on Amigas available back then unlike PC setups available at the that time), IMO he did hit a nail here:

"Carmack also spoke briefly of synthesis, or procedural generation of artistic aspects like textures and models. While he feels that one can certainly find interesting effects via synthesis, he feels that overall you will end up with better assets if an artist has spent time directly on them. He feels that synthesis technologies which use initial art developed by a human being have the best chance for producing workable assets. Beginning with a high resolution texture painted by a game artist, and synthesizing a non-repeating but infinitely tiling pattern from it may be the way to give a "hand-painted" look to future games, without requiring an artist touch manually adjust every square inch of the level manually."

despite all their processing power, the PS3 and X360 still have low RAM capacity, so the size of texture you can use remains low.


The amount of available memory is huge for a games console (PCs usually run bulky and resource draining Linux, MacOS or Windows based operating systems. Using streaming methods the PS3 actually has a significant memory advantage for gaming over the 360 and PCs.

Because of game budget and content production costs, games are mostly even shorter than before


How short is Oblivion? How short is Pacman? Sure creating audio-visually impressive games takes time and effort, thus resources. Games will remain the same size overall due to bigger teams and the overall very healty games industry.

The move towards the PS3 costs time and effort as there's such a huge leap in technology compared to the PS2, however like the first Jak and Daxter games the later ones were much bigger while taking roughly equally as much time to develop (re-using prior game assets), God of War 2 is bigger and more polished while taking less time to develop than God of War 1.

And finally, on average, PS3 BR load slower than X360 DVD, on multiformat games.


Like I said single layer DVDs can be read faster, but such games can easily fit on any PS3's harddrive which load much faster.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

@ Cryoakira

with a little citation " Said Bethesda's Todd Howard, "Drive speed matters more to me [than total capacity], and Blu-ray is slower." "

Obviously, you're the one misinformed about the subject and you should read a bit more on the internet abou it.


The statement was overall incorrect, he must have been referring solely to seektimes. Like a DVD has slower seektimes than a CD (higher density of data).

The PS3 Blu-Ray drive is faster than the 360 drive overall. 360 users made a lot of fuss about these statements pointing out Oblivion would be slow on the PS3, which turned out not to be the case as Oblivion not only looks much better on the PS3 (720p vs 600, longer draw distances, better framerates) but also is considerably faster.

Another Berthesa comment afterwards, which unsuprisingly received little to no attention from 360 fans regarding Todd's comments:

"Bethesda's Pete Hines also commented that recent reports of data duplication on the PS3 Oblivion disc have been exaggerated, and this technique isn't different from the similar strategy that was employed in the creation of the Xbox 360 game last year"



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

Andir said:
Smidlee said:
One thing I noticed PS3 BR runs extremely quite. Also I love how in Uncharted there is no load times (actually loads as you go).

It's quiet because it doesn't have to spin up to the speeds required for DVD to transfer a similar amount of data.


Correct, more data per track means one disc circulation reads more data.

IMO the silence of the PS3's drive compared to the 360's drive as well as mandatory scratch resistance for Blu-Ray discs are of huge (underhyped) longterm consumer value.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

MikeB said:
Andir said:
Smidlee said:
One thing I noticed PS3 BR runs extremely quite. Also I love how in Uncharted there is no load times (actually loads as you go).

It's quiet because it doesn't have to spin up to the speeds required for DVD to transfer a similar amount of data.


Correct, more data per track means one disc circulation reads more data.

IMO the silence of the PS3's drive compared to the 360's drive as well as mandatory scratch resistance for Blu-Ray discs are of huge (underhyped) longterm consumer value.


To add to to this regarding technology lastability. In devices moving parts are suffering from wearing, the more movements required the faster they wear off. Already many 360 users are suffering from disc scratches, the insane speeds the 360 drive has to spin game discs constantly (A PC game is usually installed onto the harddrive) results into longterm wearing problems, disc scratches will become even more common over time.

2.5 inch harddrive should usually last longer than 3.5 inch harddrives as well, sadly consumers usually aren't much aware of such factors.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

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@ Garcian Smith

Uncompressed 7.1 audio is nice, but for the 99.9% of us who don't have a speaker system that can handle it


7.1 audio solutions have become pretty affordable, 7.1 audio adoption is already seems to be around 24% for US PS3 users:



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself Mike? :-p



@ twesterm

Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself Mike? :-p


I often get the feeling many people (fanboys) don't really care about more factual information, I have been travelling for 15+ hours straight, so I was a little late replying, thus my avalanche of overdue replies.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

Actually, even if you take into consideration the OS overhead in PC's, they STILL have more ram(and more video ram) available than the PS3/360 does and more powerful GPUs to boot. Granted, they DO run games at a higher resolution than the PS3 and 360 do, so they need the extra GPU power.

PCs also get access to faster HDD's, which can improve streaming speeds.

The REAL problems with PC development is hardware costs, having to ensure your software works with older hardware and being unable to optimize for a specific hardware setup.(the last one is the big one)



@ Coglestop

PCs also get access to faster HDD's, which can improve streaming speeds.


Yes, that may be an advantage in some cases (although on the PC devs often need to take into account lower specced PCs, unlike for PS3s which at their core are all specced identically, though PS3s can use faster harddrives as well). The entire content of a 50GB Blu-Ray disc can be streamed in much less time than the duration of a very short game, continuously streaming audio and textures, so IMO the reading speed is more than sufficient for well designed games and storage size is actually of much higher importance.

The REAL problems with PC development is hardware costs, having to ensure your software works with older hardware and being unable to optimize for a specific hardware setup.(the last one is the big one)

Agreed, I shared such opinions often in the past.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales