By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - Prove that God exists

Runa216 said:
glimmer_of_hope said:

Im sorry but when but when 69-90% of the whole world population believes in a God that means something. Talking about "faulty logic" you should be talking about your OWN logic. You are asking for proof of God, yet you are not willing to prove there is no God. Whats the logic in that?

Do you even know what propaganda is? Apparently not! So now you are claiming that people who believe differently then you is spreading propaganda?

We are talking about peoples own beliefs.....and your saying it's propaganda now? Why the hell hasn't this thread been shut down?

Dude you have been beat down sooo bad in this thread that now your just talking garbage. You dont even make sence! You cant demand proof if you cannot provide proof on your end! Thats like saying "ok we are going to fight....i can hit you....but you cant hit me" 

Do you believe the Egyptions built the pyramids? Where is the proof of that? No pictures, no proof, just people saying that it happened. 

It's the same as God. No pictures, no proof. But people say he exists. Just as people will say the Egyptions left behind the Pyramids, God left his creation behind.

 

You don't really do this whole 'debate' thing very often, do you?  

1 - I am not claiming there is no god.  The world is not black and white, as it were.  Just because I'm not convinced there IS a god doesn't mean I absolutely believe there is NO god.  that's just you extending or assumptions about me into a ridiculus extrapolation so you can prove my ignorance.  Also known as the Strawman Fallacy.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_fallacy

2 - Okay, so propaganda was the wrong word to use but it seemed the simplest to equate. I didn't want to have to go into detail about how the church promises eternal life, companionship and various other things in exchange for faith and support.  There's a whole debate there but it was easier (and while technically inaccurate, a good paralell) to call it propaganda.  Long story short, hope and fear are powerful motivators.  

3 - Again, I have not been 'beaten down' in any way.  Nobody has provided a single compelling point in the other direction.  I asked for proof of God's existence and nobody has given that. I repeat, I'm not making bold claims, though I ask that those who do support those claims with evidence.  It's honestly not too much to ask and the closest anyone's come to offering solid proof in the other direction is offering some powerful philosophy (thank you Dr Grass), but that's only a "what if' scenario, not proof.  Proof has tangible results, the scientific demands the results can be replicated with infinite accuracy , etc.  Seriously, your analogy fails because nobody's swinging at me, they're just talking about how silly I am for wanting to fight them.  

4 - Again with the strawman (in a roundabout way.)  I have no idea who built the pyramids, maybe it was aliens, maybe it was a race of sand creatures.  all I do know for a fact is that the pyramids are in Egypt...and according to science were built in the same period the ancient egyptians were supposedly there.  If I follow the Evidence, then yes, it's fair to assume the egyptians built the pyramids, but if there was any actual evidence claiming something to the contrary, I'd honestly go "hmmm, interesting." and continue to ponder it.  

5 - That's your final argument?  This is not an argument, it's not even philosophy.  It's not even an apples and oranges comparison, more like apples and ankhs. God never came down, there's nothing in our textbooks about God, jsut about a whole lot of people talking about god.  people talk about Xenu, too...do you believe what the church of scientology has to say?  Lots of people say they've been abducted by aliens, but just because a lot of people said it, that doesn't mean it's true.  It's just a bunch of people making claims without proof.  Just because the concept of 'God' caught on early in our history, in a time when people wanted answers and couldn't figure things out.  

You are a master mingling words and hypocrisy thats for sure.

YES you are claiming there is no God. Just because you dont flat out say it, doesnt mean you are not implying it. You either believe in God...or you dont. It's very that simple. I don't need to prove your ignorance.....you do that fine on your own.

I am not twisting your words as you claim.....i called you on actual things you wrote. If you don't want people to take things the wrong way then perhaps you should write your opinions properly ! You called religon propaganda...then you don't. You really have no idea where to go next do you? LOL

You don't get it do you? WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? You dance around in circles pretending you do not hear that question. There is give and take at all times. You cannot provide a single shred of proof that God doesnt exist can you? 

There is no more actual proof of the Egyptians building the pyramids, as there is God building us. NO PROOF ! You are such a hypocrite.....You ask for solid proof regarding God, yet non solid proof for the pyramids is good enough for you? Proof is proof. Just like non solid proof leads us believers towards God. The same noon solid proof leads you to believe Egyptians build the pyramids. But you refuse to see the other side.

 You statements of assumption are no more valid then mine. The final paragraph you wrote is full of nothing. Religon is seperate from school as well as Government. Of course God wont be in a textbook. The statement i underlined pretty much sums you up. Proof, pprrooff, proooof, proufe, proofz.

Scientists go on and on about the Big Bang....yet no proof.

Scientists go on and on about Dark Matter.....yet no proof.

Scientists go on and on about Carbon Dating......yet they have dated coal to 300 million years, but was actually more like 1000 years. 

You like to have proof for everything it seems, yet science is a whole lot of theory and assumption itself. But you only choose to believe what you believe.



                                  Gaming Away Life Since 1985


Around the Network

Please prove a link stateing it wont! I know for a fact i have wished many things and it came true. 



                                  Gaming Away Life Since 1985


blkfish92 said:
zarx said:
blkfish92 said:
Runa216 said:
blkfish92 said:
Have one look at me.

...sure hope nobody used that joke already


sorry dude, like six people beat you to it. 


Well it was worth a shot =p

well mine was a joke where I was implying that I was a Autothiest...


Ha good stuff!

I thought so at the time, I was hoping someone would call me on it so I could argue why I belive that I am in fact God and created this universe. It is a argument I have spent some time pondering.



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

zarx said:
blkfish92 said:
zarx said:
blkfish92 said:
Runa216 said:
blkfish92 said:
Have one look at me.

...sure hope nobody used that joke already


sorry dude, like six people beat you to it. 


Well it was worth a shot =p

well mine was a joke where I was implying that I was a Autothiest...


Ha good stuff!

I thought so at the time, I was hoping someone would call me on it so I could argue why I belive that I am in fact God and created this universe. It is a argument I have spent some time pondering.


Well I'm not god, but thanks to denial I'm immortal =p



           

glimmer_of_hope said:

Scientists go on and on about Carbon Dating......yet they have dated coal to 300 million years, but was actually more like 1000 years. 

You like to have proof for everything it seems, yet science is a whole lot of theory and assumption itself. But you only choose to believe what you believe.

This is just silly.  I do not want to spend a lot of time on a point by point rebuttal you will most likely just ignore/dismiss/sidestep.  However, I do want to engage on one specific thing: 

1000 year old coal?  Source plz. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Around the Network
DeadNotSleeping said:
Runa216 said:
Furthermore, if anyone wants to continue to attempt to discredit scientific knowledge, then I challenge you to find a flaw in the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Best of luck to you. If you cannot think up a less biased, more accurate way to prove what is and what is not, then STOP SAYING THAT SCIENCE DOESNT PROVE THINGS. There is nothing more frustrating than a group of people who collectively are unable to see the evidence laid RIGHT out in front of them. It's even worse when certain...spiritual types are all "Where's the proof? where's the missing link? Your evidence is inconclusive" While arguing an opposing viewpoint that has even less proof (read: virtually none), and expect to be respected.

So have fun.

The Scientific Method is the best system we have at the moment, but it is grievously flawed.  For one thing, it is not a fraud detection system.  It is easy to read the reports and deduce the validity of their methods, but if someone fabricated results it is not so obvious.  The strange belief that there's a positive correlation between vaccines and Autism is a testament to this.

Secondly, bias influences the peer review process; there are many scientists out there who are not so pure as to permit contradictory conclusions to their own hypotheses to gain momentum; indeed, some throw their weight around to suppress new discoveries that threaten their own work.  When corporations finance scientific research, this becomes commonplace.

Finally, there is a disparity between nations when it comes to representation in scientific journals.  Even in cases where the methods and conclusions are quite reasonable, research and discoveries made by those in developing nations is admittedly underrepresented by the scientific community. People also erroneously conclude that a lack of data acquired by the Scientific Method equates to the absence of phenomena.

The Scientific Method is the best system we have but it is far, far from perfect.  At its best, it is a tool for critical thinking.  At its worst, it is a device to reject information even when it is correct.  And it does not prove things.  It sets the parameters for making the most educated conclusions based on present understanding.  That's why things change as new discoveries are made.  Scientific Laws only apply to mathematics; universal constants (although new discoveries suggest that the Laws of Physics are different elsewhere in the universe), and should an event arise where the Law fails, all science based upon it must be ba cast aside.

This is why there are Theories, the closest thing to Laws that can exist without mathematics to back it up, Laws the closest things to Facts as far as we know.  Now you know why there's Mendel's Laws of Heredity, but evolution remains a Theory.


It seems like everybody ignored your post, but I think you raise a number of good points. The one thing I always found ironic about the scientific method is that it actually utilizes an invalid argument form (affirming the consequent). The way the scientific method is structured, it says,

1. If hypothesis A is true, B will be observed.

2. B is observed.

3. Therefore, hypothesis A is true. 

This is an invalid argument form. As a counterexample:

1. If there is fire, then there is oxygen.

2. There is oxygen

3. Therefore, there is fire.

Obviously, this is false because the presence of oxygen does not mean there is fire. In the same way, the first argument is false because the presence of B does not mean hypothesis A is true. This is why there is such an emphasis on repeatability in science, and scientists are always quick to point out they don't prove theories. The best they can do is repeatably confirm them, and they argue that repeated confirmation allows theories to become knowledge.

Overall, I agree with you that the scientific method is the best system we have for gaining knowledge about the empirical world, but it is still a flawed system.



glimmer_of_hope said:

You are flat out wrong. ALL of these religions are directly linked to a God or Gods. There is no getting around it. Please provide a link to your numbers claim !!

Buddhism isn't.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

GameOver22 said:
DeadNotSleeping said:
Runa216 said:
Furthermore, if anyone wants to continue to attempt to discredit scientific knowledge, then I challenge you to find a flaw in the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Best of luck to you. If you cannot think up a less biased, more accurate way to prove what is and what is not, then STOP SAYING THAT SCIENCE DOESNT PROVE THINGS. There is nothing more frustrating than a group of people who collectively are unable to see the evidence laid RIGHT out in front of them. It's even worse when certain...spiritual types are all "Where's the proof? where's the missing link? Your evidence is inconclusive" While arguing an opposing viewpoint that has even less proof (read: virtually none), and expect to be respected.

So have fun.

The Scientific Method is the best system we have at the moment, but it is grievously flawed.  For one thing, it is not a fraud detection system.  It is easy to read the reports and deduce the validity of their methods, but if someone fabricated results it is not so obvious.  The strange belief that there's a positive correlation between vaccines and Autism is a testament to this.

Secondly, bias influences the peer review process; there are many scientists out there who are not so pure as to permit contradictory conclusions to their own hypotheses to gain momentum; indeed, some throw their weight around to suppress new discoveries that threaten their own work.  When corporations finance scientific research, this becomes commonplace.

Finally, there is a disparity between nations when it comes to representation in scientific journals.  Even in cases where the methods and conclusions are quite reasonable, research and discoveries made by those in developing nations is admittedly underrepresented by the scientific community. People also erroneously conclude that a lack of data acquired by the Scientific Method equates to the absence of phenomena.

The Scientific Method is the best system we have but it is far, far from perfect.  At its best, it is a tool for critical thinking.  At its worst, it is a device to reject information even when it is correct.  And it does not prove things.  It sets the parameters for making the most educated conclusions based on present understanding.  That's why things change as new discoveries are made.  Scientific Laws only apply to mathematics; universal constants (although new discoveries suggest that the Laws of Physics are different elsewhere in the universe), and should an event arise where the Law fails, all science based upon it must be ba cast aside.

This is why there are Theories, the closest thing to Laws that can exist without mathematics to back it up, Laws the closest things to Facts as far as we know.  Now you know why there's Mendel's Laws of Heredity, but evolution remains a Theory.


It seems like everybody ignored your post, but I think you raise a number of good points. The one thing I always found ironic about the scientific method is that it actually utilizes an invalid argument form (affirming the consequent). The way the scientific method is structured, it says,

1. If hypothesis A is true, B will be observed.

2. B is observed.

3. Therefore, hypothesis A is true. 

This is an invalid argument form. As a counterexample:

1. If there is fire, then there is oxygen.

2. There is oxygen

3. Therefore, there is fire.

Obviously, this is false because the presence of oxygen does not mean there is fire. In the same way, the first argument is false because the presence of B does not mean hypothesis A is true. This is why there is such an emphasis on repeatability in science, and scientists are always quick to point out they don't prove theories. The best they can do is repeatably confirm them, and they argue that repeated confirmation allows theories to become knowledge.

Overall, I agree with you that the scientific method is the best system we have for gaining knowledge about the empirical world, but it is still a flawed system.


That is nothing like the scientific method, the scientific method requires testing all known controlable variables to insure a hypothisis is correct.

1. If there is fire, then there is oxygen.

2. There is oxygen

3. Therefore, there is fire.

 

4. Test whether there is fire.

would be the scientific method which is at it's most basic:

 

1. Use your experience: Consider the problem and try to make sense of it. Look for previous explanations. If this is a new problem to you, then move to step 2.

2. Form a conjecture: When nothing else is yet known, try to state an explanation, to someone else, or to your notebook.

3. Deduce a prediction from that explanation: If you assume 2 is true, what consequences follow?

4. Test: Look for the opposite of each consequence in order to disprove 2. It is a logical error to seek 3 directly as proof of 2. This error is called affirming the consequent.

What you proposed would have failed the 4th step let alone the more complete method:

 

1. Define a question

2. Gather information and resources (observe)

3. Form an explanatory hypothesis

4. Perform an experiment and collect data, testing the hypothesis

5. Analyze the data

6. Interpret the data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis

7. Publish results

8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

 



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

GameOver22 said:


It seems like everybody ignored your post, but I think you raise a number of good points. The one thing I always found ironic about the scientific method is that it actually utilizes an invalid argument form (affirming the consequent). The way the scientific method is structured, it says,

1. If hypothesis A is true, B will be observed.

2. B is observed.

3. Therefore, hypothesis A is true. 

This is an invalid argument form. As a counterexample:

1. If there is fire, then there is oxygen.

2. There is oxygen

3. Therefore, there is fire.

Obviously, this is false because the presence of oxygen does not mean there is fire. In the same way, the first argument is false because the presence of B does not mean hypothesis A is true. This is why there is such an emphasis on repeatability in science, and scientists are always quick to point out they don't prove theories. The best they can do is repeatably confirm them, and they argue that repeated confirmation allows theories to become knowledge.

Overall, I agree with you that the scientific method is the best system we have for gaining knowledge about the empirical world, but it is still a flawed system.


Sorry, but that's simply not how the scientific method works. Your A-> B example would be a logical fallacy and no scientist would ever commit that, but the point is that the method works by temptative falsification, not by absolute confirmation.

In your terms:

1 If hypothesis A is true, B will be observed.

2 B is observed.

therefore

3 A is currently compatible with observations, ie currently not falsified

if NOT(B) were positively observed (maybe at a past point in time with better experimental apparata) then strict logic would imply NOT(B)-> NOT(A) and A would be a falsified hypothesis

Obviously, you can make up a lot of theories that are hardly falsifiable, but they are simply not good scientific theories: a good theory should both 1) have explainative/predictive power 2) be falsifiable.

String theory seems to have a lot of (1), because it seems to explain mathematically a lot of what emerges in several other more mundane physics theory. And yet it has, currently, basically zero in the way of experimental falsification. That is why most theoretical physics don't consider it a "good" theory notwithstanding all the explaining and semplification it seems to bring.

On the other hand special and general relativity or quantum mechanics not only did explain a lot, but have been tested against, literally millions of times in thousands of different experiments over the last century.

A scientist will never tell you that they are "true" in an absolute sense, but will rely on the fact that they survived falsification in those thousands of experiments and thus that they are likely to correctly predict the behaviour of the world in real cases similar to those tested. If one day a single experiment will - say - falsify general relativity, then scientists will look for a theory that a) predicts world behaviour at least as well as relativity in the previous N cases b) is compatible with that last (N+1)th result.

The method provides a ladder of increasingly accurately predictive theories, not logic absolutes based on faulty induction. Google for Popper.



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

Runa216 said:

NYANKS said:

Trying to prove God's existence with logic through philosophical principles or any other way is just an endless battle of semantics and finding the flaw in the logic.  The point is faith.

This is exactly the problem.  Having faith is irrational, because at it's very core it's believing in something regardless of (or occasionally despite of) the evidence presented, or lack thereof.  It's the act of willful ignorance.  Proof would negate faith, therefore proving god exists would neutralize his purpose.  (according to some philosophers)

And as a man of science, and as a man of logic, I honestly think the world would be better this way.  Without religious meddling we wouldn't have people questioning evolution for all the wrong reasons, we wouldn't have people teaching intelligent design in school, we would have cracked the mystery potential of stem cells by now, and  we wouldn't have had the dark ages where the church stifled knowledge and science in order to retain power over the people. Yes, religion has its place, religion has done far more good than bad, but keep that shit out of science class.  One of the points I was making was to showcase how true that statement is.  I wanted people to offer proof/evidence of a God, and once that was done (if anyone gave compelling evidence), I was going to ask to have them prove that their religion or version of God was more right than the neighbouring theology.  Furthermore, assuming we got that far, I was going to demand they offer substantial proof that their interpretation of their holy text was correct and uncorrupted. 

I know damn well you can't PROVE god exists, no better than you can prove he doesn't (I don't claim to know the answers), but the best and most intelligent thing we can do is follow the evidence, and a book written over a millenia ago is NOT adequate evidence when arguing or debating things like the inception of the human race or even the universe.  doubly so when everyone has their own interpretation of whatever holy text they follow.  Hell, I was in public school in the early 90's, and if we had textbooks written in the 70's or 80's, they were considered outdated and replaced, yet we have people (powerful people) in media and politics basing their entire campaigns on a book written in a time when we still thought mercury was a miracle cure.  THIS IS DANGEROUS.  I really don't need to point out the swath of examples throughout history to tell you that fanatical people following archaic belief systems can do a LOT of damage, do I?  

The point, and the one major thing that upsets me so greatly about all this is that all my ranting and raving is falling on deaf ears.  those who agree with me will probably nod their heads in agreement while condemning me for my rather abrupt and frankly aggressive presentation of my opinions, but those who disagree feel a socially pressured need to rebel against my stance, since religion is such a deeply engraved social phenomenon.  It doesn't matter if I'm right or not, it doesn't matter if I'm angry and loud or reserved and rational, many people worldwide have already made up their minds and my loudmouthed outbursts, regardless of their validity, will only further strengthen their faith, since I'm giving them a clear target.  

I'm not asking for much.  All I want is a world where the religious can pray and hope for an afterlife in peace, and the scientists can continue to seek unbiased truth without meddling from the church.  when that day comes, and we can all live happily ever after, I promise I will never, ever bring up religion again.  Sadly, we don't live in that world. AS long as we have terrorists blowing up buildings and meddling churches interfering with science, I will be right there, front row and center to fight for atheism.  

Or, if someone can prove that God is real and that he is as the holy text says, I will recind all my comments and join whatever cult is the right one.  Until that day, I am Atheist, I am proud, and I am not afraid to ask questions.  

I think the real problem is lack of education. When people don't understand something, they are prone to misuse it.  This goes far beyond religion.  I'm Catholic, but I also understand logic.  They can be integrated and used responsibly.  I agree with your science class thing.  But this won't change unless people are more highly educated.