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Forums - Politics Discussion - Libya almost liberated now what?

MDMAniac said:
Joelcool7 said:

Seriously if Libyan's had it so good and such why would so many millions of them rise up in the first place?


You know that libyan population is only about 6 millions, right? Don't make those silly mistakes, if there were even half a million who rebelled, we wouldn't have been in need for the intervention in the first place. And the campaign wouldn't have lasted for 6 months.

...I can't even believe what I'm reading. Seriously, where are you coming up with this rubbish?



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mrstickball said:

Time will tell if your view is correct or not. The Egyptian revolution is still in the transitional stage, so we won't really know how things will pan out. However, the recent attack on Israel via Egypt is a disturbing event, and if more such attacks are carried out, I would question if it Mubarak's plan, or the reality of a new Egypt being aligned with different factions.



This is where it's difficult to say. There are some Egyptian soldiers stationed on the Sinai who have stated different stories about the insurgency in the Sinai and what happened in Eilat, but just so you know, the overwhelming majority of the Egyptians are sympathetic to the Palestinians, and hate Israel with a passion. So it's not really a secret as to how Egypt is forming in regards to which faction they're aligned with.

But when I mentioned the Mubarak regime's plan, I was referring to the chaos strictly within Egypt, not the recent events in Eilat and the attack on the Israeli embassy in Cairo.



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huaxiong90 said:
mrstickball said:

Time will tell if your view is correct or not. The Egyptian revolution is still in the transitional stage, so we won't really know how things will pan out. However, the recent attack on Israel via Egypt is a disturbing event, and if more such attacks are carried out, I would question if it Mubarak's plan, or the reality of a new Egypt being aligned with different factions.



This is where it's difficult to say. There are some Egyptian soldiers stationed on the Sinai who have stated different stories about the insurgency in the Sinai and what happened in Eilat, but just so you know, the overwhelming majority of the Egyptians are sympathetic to the Palestinians, and hate Israel with a passion. So it's not really a secret as to how Egypt is forming in regards to which faction they're aligned with.

But when I mentioned the Mubarak regime's plan, I was referring to the chaos strictly within Egypt, not the recent events in Eilat and the attack on the Israeli embassy in Cairo.

The new Egypt will certainly find itself uniquely aligned. Who now can really sympathize with their position? They can't move into the virulently anti-Israeli camp as it is, since it's populated by Assad's Syria and Iran, both of whom violently oppose the Arab Spring democratic values. Erdogan's Turkey might prove to be a good guide for the new Egypt, and perhaps Lebanon, which is also trying to take a middle gear as an anti-Israeli democracy



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Mr Khan said:

The new Egypt will certainly find itself uniquely aligned. Who now can really sympathize with their position? They can't move into the virulently anti-Israeli camp as it is, since it's populated by Assad's Syria and Iran, both of whom violently oppose the Arab Spring democratic values. Erdogan's Turkey might prove to be a good guide for the new Egypt, and perhaps Lebanon, which is also trying to take a middle gear as an anti-Israeli democracy

Iran actually wants the Arab spring to hit all the U.S. backed regimes, particularly the GCC nations, so that they can gain a foothold against American influence. But the democratic values of it, yes, they oppose that.

Honestly, my favorite Muslim leaders whom I think all Arab countries should take notes from are of course Erdogan (though the secularists hate him as they believe he's trying to completely undo Turkey's secular nature), Malaysia under Mahathir Mohammad, and the Emir of Qatar. If you don't know about Qatar, read these to get a brief idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Qatar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Qatar



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huaxiong90 said:
Mr Khan said:

The new Egypt will certainly find itself uniquely aligned. Who now can really sympathize with their position? They can't move into the virulently anti-Israeli camp as it is, since it's populated by Assad's Syria and Iran, both of whom violently oppose the Arab Spring democratic values. Erdogan's Turkey might prove to be a good guide for the new Egypt, and perhaps Lebanon, which is also trying to take a middle gear as an anti-Israeli democracy

Iran actually wants the Arab spring to hit all the U.S. backed regimes, particularly the GCC nations, so that they can gain a foothold against American influence. But the democratic values of it, yes, they oppose that.

Honestly, my favorite Muslim leaders whom I think all Arab countries should take notes from are of course Erdogan (though the secularists hate him as they believe he's trying to completely undo Turkey's secular nature), Malaysia under Mahathir Mohammad, and the Emir of Qatar. If you don't know about Qatar, read these to get a brief idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Qatar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Qatar

Erdogan's seemed kinda shady, mostly because he called Omar al-Bashir "a good Muslim," though i don't know much about the merits of his domestic policy



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now they get rolled into economic slavery



Mr Khan said:
huaxiong90 said:

Iran actually wants the Arab spring to hit all the U.S. backed regimes, particularly the GCC nations, so that they can gain a foothold against American influence. But the democratic values of it, yes, they oppose that.

Honestly, my favorite Muslim leaders whom I think all Arab countries should take notes from are of course Erdogan (though the secularists hate him as they believe he's trying to completely undo Turkey's secular nature), Malaysia under Mahathir Mohammad, and the Emir of Qatar. If you don't know about Qatar, read these to get a brief idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Qatar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Qatar

Erdogan's seemed kinda shady, mostly because he called Omar al-Bashir "a good Muslim," though i don't know much about the merits of his domestic policy

Sudan's a hard call. To start off, a good number of Northern Sudanese were saying that prior to the South's seccession, when he first took office things have actually been improving in Northern Sudan, thanks to most of their profits coming from petrol exports. It's also said that he was trying to seek peace with the South and end the conflict, but the South had unrealistic demands, coupled with the insanely high pressure and sanctions imposed against him from foreign countries. In fact, they say Gaddafi and particularly Mubarak (who was very supportive of Israel) were key players in causing the seccession to happen.

Basically, the word on the street amongst Egyptians is that the conflict had been around for a long time, and the discovery of rich petroleum fields in the South caused Israel specifically and other foreign countries to take an interest in it. So since then, they would continuously manipulate and spark fighting between the North and South, so that they can then take advantage of the chaos, and cast the blame on the North, and then impose their sanctions, so that they can seperate the North from the rich oil fields in the South.

Take this with a grain of salt, since I can't confirm it completely to you, but that's what I have heard from local Egyptians, and the Egyptians Aljazeera interviewed on the streets of Egypt about the seccession.

Personally, I don't see it as being too farfetched. The practice of causing conflicts in a country between religions/ethnic groups for political/economical gains has been done for a long time now.



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huaxiong90 said:
Mr Khan said:
huaxiong90 said:

Iran actually wants the Arab spring to hit all the U.S. backed regimes, particularly the GCC nations, so that they can gain a foothold against American influence. But the democratic values of it, yes, they oppose that.

Honestly, my favorite Muslim leaders whom I think all Arab countries should take notes from are of course Erdogan (though the secularists hate him as they believe he's trying to completely undo Turkey's secular nature), Malaysia under Mahathir Mohammad, and the Emir of Qatar. If you don't know about Qatar, read these to get a brief idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Qatar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Qatar

Erdogan's seemed kinda shady, mostly because he called Omar al-Bashir "a good Muslim," though i don't know much about the merits of his domestic policy

Sudan's a hard call. To start off, a good number of Northern Sudanese were saying that prior to the South's seccession, when he first took office things have actually been improving in Northern Sudan, thanks to most of their profits coming from petrol exports. It's also said that he was trying to seek peace with the South and end the conflict, but the South had unrealistic demands, coupled with the insanely high pressure and sanctions imposed against him from foreign countries. In fact, they say Gaddafi and particularly Mubarak (who was very supportive of Israel) were key players in causing the seccession to happen.

Basically, the word on the street amongst Egyptians is that the conflict had been around for a long time, and the discovery of rich petroleum fields in the South caused Israel specifically and other foreign countries to take an interest in it. So since then, they would continuously manipulate and spark fighting between the North and South, so that they can then take advantage of the chaos, and cast the blame on the North, and then impose their sanctions, so that they can seperate the North from the rich oil fields in the South.

Take this with a grain of salt, since I can't confirm it completely to you, but that's what I have heard from local Egyptians, and the Egyptians Aljazeera interviewed on the streets of Egypt about the seccession.

Personally, I don't see it as being too farfetched. The practice of causing conflicts in a country between religions/ethnic groups has been done for a long time now.

But the genocide. It seems fairly clear that the Janjaweed had connections with Bashir, or at least Bashir just sat back and let the Janjaweed do as they wished, which is where blame more squarely falls on Khartoum's shoulders, even if Western Oil interests were likely trying to aggravate matters down South (which is very possible)



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Mr Khan said:

But the genocide. It seems fairly clear that the Janjaweed had connections with Bashir, or at least Bashir just sat back and let the Janjaweed do as they wished, which is where blame more squarely falls on Khartoum's shoulders, even if Western Oil interests were likely trying to aggravate matters down South (which is very possible)

From my understanding, they did. However, I'll give you a more detailed answer later as I am exhausted and need some sleep (not to mention it's very late here).

But before I go, keep in mind, I'm not saying it's completely the fault of foreign countries. The Sudanese government had the ability to prevent the seccession from happening a long time ago. But, by the time they realized the perils at stake, it was too late.

 

Edit: The Janjaweed and government say it's the Kordofan tribes who perpetrated the attacks.

It's pretty much just the usual tribal warfare you often see that dates back to old days, due to a lack of a truly civilized, united society (though I'd imagine in this case colonization played a huge role in sparking the conflicts). Foreign countries took note, and manipulated the situation.

And it's not really WESTERN oil interests as much as it is Israeli oil interests. Who could blame foreign countries - back when Sudan was still one, it had the 20th largest amount of proven oil reserves. Now the South has 80% of it in their hands.

I personally think if Omar al-Bashir came far earlier, things wouldn't have ended as they did.



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huaxiong90 said:
Mr Khan said:

But the genocide. It seems fairly clear that the Janjaweed had connections with Bashir, or at least Bashir just sat back and let the Janjaweed do as they wished, which is where blame more squarely falls on Khartoum's shoulders, even if Western Oil interests were likely trying to aggravate matters down South (which is very possible)

From my understanding, they did. However, I'll give you a more detailed answer later as I am exhausted and need some sleep (not to mention it's very late here).

But before I go, keep in mind, I'm not saying it's completely the fault of foreign countries. The Sudanese government had the ability to prevent the seccession from happening a long time ago. But, by the time they realized the perils at stake, it was too late.

 

Edit: The Janjaweed and government say it's the Kordofan tribes who perpetrated the attacks.

It's pretty much just the usual tribal warfare you often see that dates back to old days, due to a lack of a truly civilized, united society (though I'd imagine in this case colonization played a huge role in sparking the conflicts). Foreign countries took note, and manipulated the situation.

And it's not really WESTERN oil interests as much as it is Israeli oil interests. Who could blame foreign countries - back when Sudan was still one, it had the 20th largest amount of proven oil reserves. Now the South has 80% of it in their hands.

I personally think if Omar al-Bashir came far earlier, things wouldn't have ended as they did.

Normal tribal warfare that the government did nothing to stop though.

I will grant that Bashir seemed to be on the side of reconciliation, since i recollect him having a Southerner Vice President upon a time (though he died), so there is evidence to support that claim



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