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Forums - General - Are there any religions or cults that you just do not understand? With in reason.

Player1x3 on 23 August 2011
sapphi_snake said:
Player1x3 said:
sapphi_snake said:
Player1x3 said:
sapphi_snake said:
Player1x3 said:
I dont understand atheism. Its followers arent supposed to care about religion at all, yet they brag and complain about it more than most of religious people I know, both internet and real life, and most of them are just as self righteous, vocal and ''throat pushing'' about their beliefs as the other religious people they accuse of

Limit yourself to religions. This post if off topic.


Not at all sapphi. Atheists I was talking about behave absolutely no different than, lets say Westbro Baptist Church members, its just that instead of hating on gays, they hate on Christians and only on Christians. The only difference is that WBC memebrs arent as lazy and conter productive as their atheist counter parts, and as such tend to be a bit more active and vocal. They bear the same hatred for Christians as WBC members do for gays. They are also incredibly quick to judge others who dont share their beleifs (just like you don on everyone and everything), same thing WBC membrs do, and they are also extremly self-righteous such as you (and yet dont beleive in any moral or unviersal laws at the same time) however since WBC membrs actually believe in some universal morals and and laws, I cant blame them as much as I do people like you, altho they are no better at all

When atheists start protesting at random christian people's funerals, your argument will seem less outrageous.

They protest on almost every catholic organization and every one that includes pope so they are not that diffrent

There's nothing wrong with protesting, especially when it comes to things like protesting against the Government funding the Pope's visit. Protesting  against the Pope is not the same as protesting against a gay soldier's funeral (I don't even see what WBC members are protestign against exactly; essentially it's just harassment).


Also calling him and all catholics a pedophiles and child molestesr? Thats also, ok than? Please stop spewing crap. They are both the same, oly you are biased to your fellow militant fundamentalists.

And btw, the spanish constitution says that thier governmant would fund ANY religious event, not only christian. And Pope's vist will actually bring a lot of money to spanish economy, so agian, sad angry atheist only pretoested because it was a christian gathering



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Player1x3 on 23 August 2011
sapphi_snake said:
Player1x3 said:
sapphi_snake said:
padib said:

Sorry to cut out the top part as it was a good post, but I wanted to focus on this last paragraph. I agree that belief is best left to the individual for the most part, I also believe people help each other understand things as we're doing together right now. The one thing I would say here is that the dangers of organization or unified thought is that it transcends religion, and my example of Nazist germany is the hallmark of it. The whole country was in awe of this one leader and his great vision for Germany, so much so that they were blinded to the massive killings that this glorious vision involved. To even suggest that catholicism caused this is totally ignorant of what actually happened. If anything, Hitler created the adoration of himself, which Christianity in any form would consider idolatry.

My point is it's unfair to limit this issue to religion, it applies to ideology as a whole. The best solution to this is as you said critical thinking, thinking for oneself, and refusing to accept the most popular notion only because it's popular. Sadly with Facebook and all this thumbs up nonesense that direction is going more the way of the shits. Then again, forums like this are a good place to generate new thoughts and challenges to established ideas, which is a great thing.

Catholics are responsable for the anit-jewish sentiment that existed in Germany and Europe as a whole. The Holocaust is basically the the culmination of the persecution of Jews that the Pope ordered in the Middle Ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

And just like that, your argument goes to shit

If you actually understood the argument I was making, you'd feel pretty silly right about now. You don't though, so that's no problem.


''Catholics are responsable for the anit-jewish sentiment that existed in Germany and Europe''   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge    

Holocaust is basically the the culmination of the persecution of Jews that the Pope ordered in the Middle Ages.    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

I think I understood your pretty well



sapphi_snake on 23 August 2011
Player1x3 said:
sapphi_snake said:
Player1x3 said:
sapphi_snake said:
padib said:

Sorry to cut out the top part as it was a good post, but I wanted to focus on this last paragraph. I agree that belief is best left to the individual for the most part, I also believe people help each other understand things as we're doing together right now. The one thing I would say here is that the dangers of organization or unified thought is that it transcends religion, and my example of Nazist germany is the hallmark of it. The whole country was in awe of this one leader and his great vision for Germany, so much so that they were blinded to the massive killings that this glorious vision involved. To even suggest that catholicism caused this is totally ignorant of what actually happened. If anything, Hitler created the adoration of himself, which Christianity in any form would consider idolatry.

My point is it's unfair to limit this issue to religion, it applies to ideology as a whole. The best solution to this is as you said critical thinking, thinking for oneself, and refusing to accept the most popular notion only because it's popular. Sadly with Facebook and all this thumbs up nonesense that direction is going more the way of the shits. Then again, forums like this are a good place to generate new thoughts and challenges to established ideas, which is a great thing.

Catholics are responsable for the anit-jewish sentiment that existed in Germany and Europe as a whole. The Holocaust is basically the the culmination of the persecution of Jews that the Pope ordered in the Middle Ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

And just like that, your argument goes to shit

If you actually understood the argument I was making, you'd feel pretty silly right about now. You don't though, so that's no problem.


''Catholics are responsable for the anit-jewish sentiment that existed in Germany and Europe''   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge    

Holocaust is basically the the culmination of the persecution of Jews that the Pope ordered in the Middle Ages.    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

I think I understood your pretty well

No you didn't.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake on 23 August 2011
Player1x3 said:


Also calling him and all catholics a pedophiles and child molestesr? Thats also, ok than? Please stop spewing crap. They are both the same, oly you are biased to your fellow militant fundamentalists.

And btw, the spanish constitution says that thier governmant would fund ANY religious event, not only christian. And Pope's vist will actually bring a lot of money to spanish economy, so agian, sad angry atheist only pretoested because it was a christian gathering

When an organization harbors and protects paedophiles, this tends to have a certain effect on it's image. And the Government shouldn't be funding ANY religious events (the so-called economical benefits have been debunked in another thread).



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake on 23 August 2011
padib said:

Hey, thanks. So I was thinking about this overnight. I did verify your claim on anti-semitic charicatures in medieval litterature. I haven't seen them but here is an interesting link:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,898496,00.html

The most interesting part is the end, where the author states:

"What brought the era of anti-Semitic art to an end in the 16th century, Blumenkranz says, was the artistic sophistication of the Renaissance, with its emphasis on realism, and the Reformation. Once Catholics and Protestants began to fight one another, they had less interest in baiting Judaism."

What all this tells me, of course confirming what I already know about the actual teachings of Christianity, is that this whole hatred towards these poor people is completely based on human ambition and in no way coincides with the teachings of Christ - himself a Jew!

In other words, even for this you can't blaim the content of the religion, you can only blame the religious. As Ghandi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians." http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/1905

What you fail to realize is that to blame here are a few things, but none of which are the religion of Christianity per se:

1) Human ignorance.

2) Human ambition

3) Human racism

All in all to blame is humanity. Bar religion and these things still remain. That's something I'm fairly convinced of, I hope it makes sense to you.

Here is what Christianity actually teaches about how to relate with a fellow jew:

Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

Ingrafted Branches (Romans 11)

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

 

EDIT: Just wanted to mention that this was written by Paul the apostle, a jew himself. I, a Christian of lebanese descent, but born again, am also writing this defense of Christianity which, in all obviousness, is pro-semitic. That's the power of Christ right there.

 

It was because 'Jews killed Jesus' that Christians persecuted them. And even though the persecution may have 'lessened' after the 16th century, the hatred for Jews didn't disappear.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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Player1x3 on 23 August 2011
sapphi_snake said:
Player1x3 said:


Also calling him and all catholics a pedophiles and child molestesr? Thats also, ok than? Please stop spewing crap. They are both the same, oly you are biased to your fellow militant fundamentalists.

And btw, the spanish constitution says that thier governmant would fund ANY religious event, not only christian. And Pope's vist will actually bring a lot of money to spanish economy, so agian, sad angry atheist only pretoested because it was a christian gathering

When an organization harbors and protects paedophiles, this tends to have a certain effect on it's image. And the Government shouldn't be funding ANY religious events (the so-called economical benefits have been debunked in another thread).

Catholic church is more than just a organization. Its far beyond that. Also, calling all catholics pedophiles is just as good as calling all gays demons and reffer to them as fags

If the constitution says so, than they must and they should. And economical profit hasnt been debnked at all.



Player1x3 on 23 August 2011
sapphi_snake said:
Player1x3 said:
sapphi_snake said:
Player1x3 said:
sapphi_snake said:
padib said:

Sorry to cut out the top part as it was a good post, but I wanted to focus on this last paragraph. I agree that belief is best left to the individual for the most part, I also believe people help each other understand things as we're doing together right now. The one thing I would say here is that the dangers of organization or unified thought is that it transcends religion, and my example of Nazist germany is the hallmark of it. The whole country was in awe of this one leader and his great vision for Germany, so much so that they were blinded to the massive killings that this glorious vision involved. To even suggest that catholicism caused this is totally ignorant of what actually happened. If anything, Hitler created the adoration of himself, which Christianity in any form would consider idolatry.

My point is it's unfair to limit this issue to religion, it applies to ideology as a whole. The best solution to this is as you said critical thinking, thinking for oneself, and refusing to accept the most popular notion only because it's popular. Sadly with Facebook and all this thumbs up nonesense that direction is going more the way of the shits. Then again, forums like this are a good place to generate new thoughts and challenges to established ideas, which is a great thing.

Catholics are responsable for the anit-jewish sentiment that existed in Germany and Europe as a whole. The Holocaust is basically the the culmination of the persecution of Jews that the Pope ordered in the Middle Ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

And just like that, your argument goes to shit

If you actually understood the argument I was making, you'd feel pretty silly right about now. You don't though, so that's no problem.


''Catholics are responsable for the anit-jewish sentiment that existed in Germany and Europe''   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge    

Holocaust is basically the the culmination of the persecution of Jews that the Pope ordered in the Middle Ages.    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

I think I understood your pretty well

No you didn't.


I did Saphi, I did



ghettoglamour on 23 August 2011

Religion is the biggest lie in human history and it's only used to manipulate simple minded people for power and money. PERIOD



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theprof00 on 23 August 2011

modern christianity.
It's completely retarded, and a money factory.

 

@padib

you make some logical points, but Sapphi is right about christianity culminating in the anti-semitic attitude. It almost has nothing to do with killing jesus. It has everything to do with Jews having a lot of power, wherein reasons were "invented" to support persecution.

Additionally, the problem with christianity is that it is so easily misinterpreted. Cherry picking is almost the hallmark of christianity. Some things are just meant to be morals, others are laws, some are just kooky stories. It all changes and has changed throughout history based on the commonalities of the culture.

But you're right, it's not the religion's fault, it's the religious. And honestly, True christians should really think about changing the name of their ideology, because at this point in time the majority is wrong. I've met some true christians, and they're very good people, my dad is one. But right now, christians are a plague. And true christians should either change their moniker, or make more of an attempt to fix what's wrong...oddly enough, right now, it's the atheists that actually try to fix the christians, and they do it by quoting the bible, and showing them what they're doing wrong. You True christians should be doing that.



Dodece on 23 August 2011

Ultimately Judaism itself is responsible for the Holocaust. Truly a object lesson in those that live by the sword in the end die by the sword. Sadly it is a lesson nobody wants to learn. Jewish faith and tradition is heavily geared toward a very positive view on the practice of Genocide. Further more the community went so far as to pass laws based upon racial purity. They even floated the notion of zealotry. Later religions just co-opted these concepts into their faiths, and thus compounded the thought.

Ultimately Judaism as a faith is heavily Nationalistic. So it isn't at all surprising that its ideas were so readily adapted to Nationalism. Let us be clear Social Darwinism isn't a separate discipline it is a subtext of Nationalism. There was never any justification for it historically, biologically, or religiously. It was a justification that tried to wrap itself in the cloak of science to give it legitimacy. Natural Selection makes no value based judgements.

The reality is this Hitler used the playbook written by the Jewish Patriarchs. He followed their thinking, and their example. The simple truth is the Jews wrote the Nazi playbook. If you are looking to pin the blame ultimately on the predecessor to Nazism. You need look no further then Judaism. They called it the promised land, and Hitler went with breathing room.

Speaking to Christianity lets not beat around the bush. It is actually a form of Judaism. Perhaps more removed or perverted. Yet it still springs from the same ideas. All I am saying is it dragged the bad thinking forward. While true it probably places greater importance on conversion over complete eradication there is still some of that inside of the faith. That is why this debate has gone in circles, because Christianity is at odds with itself. At the deepest level it is racial, but on the surface it is egalitarian. So it is the Jewish thought that in both itself, and in Christianity that is primarily at fault. Blame the Torah, and blame the Old Testament.

That is where Hitler, and his cohorts got their groove. In my humble opinion the Jewish people should probably look towards revising their books, and encourage their Christian brothers to do likewise. Can you really argue that what Hitler did was evil. While celebrating those that did likewise. The only difference is in who reaped the reward for what happened. In both cases someone got the property by murdering off the owner. Exactly what difference is there between a Canaanite who lost his farm, and a Jewish man who lost his shop. The answer is not anything at all, and that is the problem.

As long as these faiths are built upon stories that say genocide is divine, and thus justified they will continue to be a incredible excuse for genocide in the future. The irritating part is this if genocide is bad in our modern context then logically speaking you shouldn't argue that these passages were divine. Instead you should argue that they are what they probably were all along. Purely base propaganda to justify wanton crimes against humanity. A total fabrication and lie. In books that are supposed to be true these pages should just be ripped out. That will never in the end happen sadly. Since modern religion is a all of nothing proposition. If you concede that any part of it is total bullshit then that places the rest in doubt.




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