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Forums - Politics Discussion - Ann Coulter says welfare policies responsible for looting....

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richardhutnik said:

On the first point, I would say the breakdown of morals leads to the later problems, and if you lose that, you lose society.  If you also foster a culture where everyone is led to believe they are supposed to get the best of the best, all you have to do is just "try hard enough" and if you are "good enough" you are guaranteed, or that such is a right, then you will have problems.

On the second point, the issue isn't to make it a great hassle, but to recognize that individuals using drugs can royally mess up their lives, and just like you would have with the ability to drive a car, if you want to do drugs, you need to agree you fully are aware of the consequences, and how you can get addicted and ruin your life, and you assume full responsibility for doing such.  Idea is to take just enough funds to make sure the negative externalities are covered for and people are responsible if they are going to do it.  I would also look to extend the license to the use of alcohol also.  Funds from taxes of it would also cover paying for needed law enforcement anfd so on.   What is happening is people verify they know the risks involved and you still end up making sure the funds covered make up for idiots who happened to get themselves addicted, so they can get off it.  Want to have the free market manage this, so that it is run more effectively?  Fine, but you make sure it is covered by society, and people fully understand what they are getting into before engaging in it.

Maybe. Consumerism isn't a replacement for an actual culture, after all, and in the day of multiculturalism, there is very little other culture left. But I don't think the approach of "work hard and get nice stuff" is nearly as bad as "society owes you, and rich people are screwing you over". Both may be consumerism, but at least the one produces a work ethic, while the other only breeds resentment and eventual class warfare of a very literal sort.

As for drugs, the problem is this: there already exists a well established and very efficient black market. If drugs are legalized but the prices are too high and regulation is too troublesome, that black market won't suffer one bit. Furthermore, drug dealers will cease being seen as predatory scum in the bargain. They'll become something cuter and quirkier instead, kind of like modern day bootleggers: cranks dealing in a product that was once stupidly prohibited in a more puritanical and less enlightened time, whose only real crime is dodging the kind of onerous government regulations we all hate. It's not that I worship the free market or think it's God or anything; it just works because its principles work. Government, meanwhile, has to be properly administrated, but these days it has reached an incredible level of bloat and incompetence precisely because it is so big that it and all its armies of bureaucrats are utterly unaccountable to anyone. It is literally impossible for the left hand to know what the right hand is doing in such a clusterfuck.



badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

On the first point, I would say the breakdown of morals leads to the later problems, and if you lose that, you lose society.  If you also foster a culture where everyone is led to believe they are supposed to get the best of the best, all you have to do is just "try hard enough" and if you are "good enough" you are guaranteed, or that such is a right, then you will have problems.

On the second point, the issue isn't to make it a great hassle, but to recognize that individuals using drugs can royally mess up their lives, and just like you would have with the ability to drive a car, if you want to do drugs, you need to agree you fully are aware of the consequences, and how you can get addicted and ruin your life, and you assume full responsibility for doing such.  Idea is to take just enough funds to make sure the negative externalities are covered for and people are responsible if they are going to do it.  I would also look to extend the license to the use of alcohol also.  Funds from taxes of it would also cover paying for needed law enforcement anfd so on.   What is happening is people verify they know the risks involved and you still end up making sure the funds covered make up for idiots who happened to get themselves addicted, so they can get off it.  Want to have the free market manage this, so that it is run more effectively?  Fine, but you make sure it is covered by society, and people fully understand what they are getting into before engaging in it.

Maybe. Consumerism isn't a replacement for an actual culture, after all, and in the day of multiculturalism, there is very little other culture left. But I don't think the approach of "work hard and get nice stuff" is nearly as bad as "society owes you, and rich people are screwing you over". Both may be consumerism, but at least the one produces a work ethic, while the other only breeds resentment and eventual class warfare of a very literal sort.

As for drugs, the problem is this: there already exists a well established and very efficient black market. If drugs are legalized but the prices are too high and regulation is too troublesome, that black market won't suffer one bit. Furthermore, drug dealers will cease being seen as predatory scum in the bargain. They'll become something cuter and quirkier instead, kind of like modern day bootleggers: cranks dealing in a product that was once stupidly prohibited in a more puritanical and less enlightened time, whose only real crime is dodging the kind of onerous government regulations we all hate. It's not that I worship the free market or think it's God or anything; it just works because its principles work. Government, meanwhile, has to be properly administrated, but these days it has reached an incredible level of bloat and incompetence precisely because it is so big that it and all its armies of bureaucrats are utterly unaccountable to anyone. It is literally impossible for the left hand to know what the right hand is doing in such a clusterfuck.

On this note, I want to discuss a bit about black markets.  For those who advocate totally free markets, unregulated by any sort and without any sort, where NO ONE can go to the authorities to blow the whistle, how well do they work, particularly regarding something like drugs?  Does having no government oversight, which would come from legalizing them, make them superior to legal products sold? 



People always believe we spend more on Welfare (Well there is no actual budget line item called Welfare) then we actually do. This is also the case with aid to foreign countries. In 2010 4.375M people in the US received "Temporary Assistance for Needy Families". The amount budgeted in 2010 was $17.5B. 2010 Spending on Defense was $850B. For an FYI Defense spending in 2000 was $359B and TANF spending was $15.5B. So in 10 years Defense Spending has more than doubled and even though this has been one of the worst 10 year periods in job creation and income growth TANF funding went up just about 13% and $500M of that is from the stimulus program which has come to an end.

 

Oh and at any given month there are about 2 million people receiving TANF in the US. That comes out to on average about $700 per month they receive.



Its libraries that sell systems not a single game.

richardhutnik said:

On this note, I want to discuss a bit about black markets.  For those who advocate totally free markets, unregulated by any sort and without any sort, where NO ONE can go to the authorities to blow the whistle, how well do they work, particularly regarding something like drugs?  Does having no government oversight, which would come from legalizing them, make them superior to legal products sold? 

That's a rather extreme proposition, but generally speaking I suppose whether or not it's "better" depends on whether you trust consumers to decide for themselves what is the better product or trust the government to force companies (who happen to employ armies of lobbyists) to make a better product.

With narcotics in particular, I'd be quite surprised if government oversight made them less safe than they already are or anything like that. But having to comply with government regulations would certainly make them more expensive. And even the most ardent pro-legalization people tend to support age restrictions similar to those for alcohol, but keep in mind that the underage market is a huge one, so that would be just one more reason for the continuination of the black market.



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Marks said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Britain's welfare state is much less developed than those of, say, Norway, Finland, Netherlands, Denmark... which are very successful societies. So I wouldn't blame welfare.

Norway - $2.23 Trillion Debt

Denmark - $560 Billion Debt

Netherlands - $518 Billion Debt

Finland - $371 Billion Debt

 

Very high standard of living, but at a cost. And the US has huge debt thanks to social spending, as well as reckless military spending.

The figure for the Netherlands seems about right for the amount the government is in debt. The other figures are either measuring something else or are just off.

And really holding a decently sized debt isn't such a great cost.



non-gravity said:
Marks said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Britain's welfare state is much less developed than those of, say, Norway, Finland, Netherlands, Denmark... which are very successful societies. So I wouldn't blame welfare.

Norway - $2.23 Trillion Debt

Denmark - $560 Billion Debt

Netherlands - $518 Billion Debt

Finland - $371 Billion Debt

 

Very high standard of living, but at a cost. And the US has huge debt thanks to social spending, as well as reckless military spending.

The figure for the Netherlands seems about right for the amount the government is in debt. The other figures are either measuring something else or are just off.

And really holding a decently sized debt isn't such a great cost.


Yeah I got those from kind of a weird source (I just wanted a quick answer), but I went back to the CIA factbook and its different. My apologies for the crappy source. 

CIA factbook does it by percentage of GDP instead of just a number though. Norways is 48% of their GDP so more like $200 billion debt. I don't know where that other source got their whack numbers.

And yeah even though these countries doe have a large amount of debt they have really high standards of living so maybe it is worth it. 



thx1139 said:

People always believe we spend more on Welfare (Well there is no actual budget line item called Welfare) then we actually do. This is also the case with aid to foreign countries. In 2010 4.375M people in the US received "Temporary Assistance for Needy Families". The amount budgeted in 2010 was $17.5B. 2010 Spending on Defense was $850B. For an FYI Defense spending in 2000 was $359B and TANF spending was $15.5B. So in 10 years Defense Spending has more than doubled and even though this has been one of the worst 10 year periods in job creation and income growth TANF funding went up just about 13% and $500M of that is from the stimulus program which has come to an end.

 

Oh and at any given month there are about 2 million people receiving TANF in the US. That comes out to on average about $700 per month they receive.

Uh... any reason your not counting Medicaid or Unemployment or any of the other welfare programs under Welfare?  Or the Departman of Housing and Urban development... or plenty of other stuff.

Well other then the fact that it would add up to well over the Department of Defense.



badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

Everything has consequences to it.  Without some semblance of society intervention to assist those who lives have fallen apart, to act as the said safety net, where people can recover (this need not be government), end result is that without it, where people are told they need to fend for themselves, you will actually see looting and rioting breaking out as people who made bad decisions felt they had no option but to rob.  Merely saying life is hard, and creating a jungle-like environment, isn't going to solve problems.  This is particularly true with drugs, where you create addicts who are compelled to fund their habit one way or another.   Of course, one could then advocate increased arming of citizens and allow business owners to gun down whomever goes into their store, and shoot beggers to clean up the streets.

Want a system for legalizing drugs, with a semblance of a social safety net?  If it is known that people will end up messing up their lives for doing drugs, you end up taxing drugs at a proper rate, using it to fund rehab programs, and then have individuals who want to use drugs to have to get a license to buy such drugs, stating they are fully aware of the consequences, and use the money to fund education programs for people who want to use it.  Businesses selling such drugs, if they sell to individuals who don't have a license to buy, they can be sued, and put out of business.  There are negative externalities that happen from drug use, that need to be accounted for.  The license to buy, is something that states you take full responsibility for your actions.

We've just seen looting and rioting on a massive scale in Britain, a society which certainly does not lack for a social safety net. The problem really is a break down of society, of morals, of personal responsibility, and of any sort of culture of internal and external shame. Life was a lot harder decades and centuries ago, and people didn't riot because of it, but a bunch of spoiled kids armed with smartphones and brand new clothes will damned sure riot if society constantly tells them that they've somehow been cheated out of having even more stuff that they haven't earned. Especially if they don't have to worry about being shot either by the police or by an armed and empowered citizenry. It's rather darkly amusing how many governments promise they can take care of you from the cradle to the grave but are unwilling or unable (same difference, really) to carry out even the most basic functions of a government, like, oh, preventing roving packs of brats from burning down whatever they please.

As for the old "legalize drugs but tax the shit out of them and make it a great hassle with lots and lots and lots of regulation!" canard, sounds great in theory but if you tax it too much or make it too great a hassle, you'll probably do nothing to seriously harm the black market while still having the negative effect of removing much of the social stigma against using drugs. Sure, lots of people use illegal drugs anyway, but many more abuse legal prescription drugs and that, in part, is because it's not seen as something "dirty" like smoking crack.

All things are relative in terms of rioting and social action. Just because migrants from the Dust Bowl were glad to get $5 a day from California farmers in the '30s doesn't mean people can't be livid about not getting health benefits on top of $10 an hour on a given farm today

Though these riots in particular had little to do with entitlements, however, and more with the general culture of hooliganism in Britain, which has to be something that runs deeper than any overt social engineering



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:

All things are relative in terms of rioting and social action. Just because migrants from the Dust Bowl were glad to get $5 a day from California farmers in the '30s doesn't mean people can't be livid about not getting health benefits on top of $10 an hour on a given farm today

Though these riots in particular had little to do with entitlements, however, and more with the general culture of hooliganism in Britain, which has to be something that runs deeper than any overt social engineering

Agreed that it isn't entirely about entitlement policies, but I think it's a huge part of the cultural picture. People who have kids they could never otherwise afford simply to collect more in child benefits don't exactly tend to be contenders for the Parent of the Year award. Also, entitlements... breed a sense of entitlement. That sort of attitude becomes pervasive pretty quickly once it sets in and doesn't just limit itself to the stereotypical "welfare queens".