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Forums - Politics - OBAMA approval PLUMMETS to a dreadful 40%

osamanobama said:

also not to mention that letting people keep their own money doesnt add to the deficit, but pretending it does.

government never gets the amount in revenue that they predict from tax increases, and in this case getting rid of the obama tax cuts (we had i vote on these tax rates not to long ago, i seem to remember obama was in office, and he suported it along with his super majorities in both houses of congress) changes behavior people shift their money around, also businesses will be less productive, higher less people, etc, therefor will pay less taxes, than say they had a thriving business with lots of employees. so raising taxes would not only have a detremental impact on economic growth but tax revenue too (there will be a ever so slight increase in tax revenue, though it wont even put a scratch on a microscopic dent on our debt)

I am sure that is what you remember, but in the real world these cuts were set to expire at the end of 2010. The republicans threatened with a government shutdown if the Bush tax cuts were not extended. Same tactics, same result as the current debacle in Congress, and yes, America is suffering as a result.

The way I see it there are two possible ways forward for the USA. Either you continue with very low levels of government spending, but then you have to stop trying to provide social services even remotely similar to the rest of the Western world. Alternatively, increase funding and strengthen the social safety net. Right now the US is stuck in a position where they think they can provide social security, basic health care, public education and a stable infrastructure without paying for it. Most Americans probably don't realize that the quality of health-care and education in the USA is absolute shit compared to most other developed western countries. The infrastructure is following the same trajectory. The only area where the former superpower is not being outperformed by the rest of comparable countries is in military power. Who knows how long that will last though?

Of course, with the two party system currently in place, the only real choice Americans have is is they want to abolish the safety net quickly or slightly slower.

 



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sethnintendo said:

@MrStickball,

What do you suggest USA to do to fix the healthcare industry then? Make it completely privatized that way companies can jack up the price and only a select few can receive any healthcare. Get rid of it completely and let the old farts die? Pretty much USA is fucked one way or the other.


I would de-regulate it and privatize it.

America has a health care industry that is completely de-regulated. There is no FDA, no AMA, no 12 year medical degree required (in favor of a 4 year degree). In this industry, patients die and have a malpractice rate that is directly comprable to that of our current mainstream practice.

The cost differences are so pronounced that insurance doesn't even exist in the field because costs are too low for insurance companies to make a profit. 80% of doctors work at private clinics. Due to competition in the field (as well as no AMA regulatory requirements), average salary among all workers is about 50% that of traditional doctors, as there is more competition for workers, and said doctors and nurses' salaries are directly in line with comprable salaries in Europe and Japan (a worker with a doctoral degree starts at $49,000 and averages around $79,000/yr versus $200,000/yr for national American doctoral averages).

Because of the aforementioned differences - no regulatory structure, no forced requirements from a medical association, but are rather state-requirement driven, cost of care is about 60% less for the exact same types of surgeries as they are in typical hospitals in America. Visits to the doctor are $35 at most clinics vs. >$70 at any regular clinic or doctors office.

Should a patient require extensive surgeries, any and all care without government assistance is rarely above $5,000 with most general surgeries even with anesthetics is below $1,000 including overstay at these hospitals - again, without government subsidies.

 

Do you want to guess what practice this is that offers the same quality of care as hospitals? For 40% or less of the price mind you - so low that insurance companies refuse to compete because the competition ensures they can't get into the field? Take a guess. That is the system I'd want for all of our hospitals, honestly. Because it works in this health care field, and I believe it demonstrates what government regulatory restructure and unions have done to the industry (as well as cost of care caps and pegs that are artificially created by the government).



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Bong Lover said:
osamanobama said:

also not to mention that letting people keep their own money doesnt add to the deficit, but pretending it does.

government never gets the amount in revenue that they predict from tax increases, and in this case getting rid of the obama tax cuts (we had i vote on these tax rates not to long ago, i seem to remember obama was in office, and he suported it along with his super majorities in both houses of congress) changes behavior people shift their money around, also businesses will be less productive, higher less people, etc, therefor will pay less taxes, than say they had a thriving business with lots of employees. so raising taxes would not only have a detremental impact on economic growth but tax revenue too (there will be a ever so slight increase in tax revenue, though it wont even put a scratch on a microscopic dent on our debt)

I am sure that is what you remember, but in the real world these cuts were set to expire at the end of 2010. The republicans threatened with a government shutdown if the Bush tax cuts were not extended. Same tactics, same result as the current debacle in Congress, and yes, America is suffering as a result.

The way I see it there are two possible ways forward for the USA. Either you continue with very low levels of government spending, but then you have to stop trying to provide social services even remotely similar to the rest of the Western world. Alternatively, increase funding and strengthen the social safety net. Right now the US is stuck in a position where they think they can provide social security, basic health care, public education and a stable infrastructure without paying for it. Most Americans probably don't realize that the quality of health-care and education in the USA is absolute shit compared to most other developed western countries. The infrastructure is following the same trajectory. The only area where the former superpower is not being outperformed by the rest of comparable countries is in military power. Who knows how long that will last though?

Of course, with the two party system currently in place, the only real choice Americans have is is they want to abolish the safety net quickly or slightly slower.

 

yes, and they had supermajorities in both houses, if the wanted to get something done they could have, but the election was coming up, so they pandered. and they would have been even more destroyed in the election if they raised taxes.

wealth gap has only been increasing since we started all these social programs, they dont work, privatize them, and they will provide a better service for a lower cost.

and we keep doubling and doubling spending on our monopoly on eduction yet scores havent gone up for nearly 50 years, that should tell government something. we should eliminate the department of education, one of the least of reasons is because its unconstitutional.

and our healthcare system is the best in the world, thats why we have the highest survival rates of nearly every medical conditions. could it get better, you bet, you get government red tape out of the way and you will have it. get medical mal practice reform, allow people to buy insurance across state lines etc



mrstickball said:
sethnintendo said:

@MrStickball,

What do you suggest USA to do to fix the healthcare industry then? Make it completely privatized that way companies can jack up the price and only a select few can receive any healthcare. Get rid of it completely and let the old farts die? Pretty much USA is fucked one way or the other.


I would de-regulate it and privatize it.

America has a health care industry that is completely de-regulated. There is no FDA, no AMA, no 12 year medical degree required (in favor of a 4 year degree). In this industry, patients die and have a malpractice rate that is directly comprable to that of our current mainstream practice.

The cost differences are so pronounced that insurance doesn't even exist in the field because costs are too low for insurance companies to make a profit. 80% of doctors work at private clinics. Due to competition in the field (as well as no AMA regulatory requirements), average salary among all workers is about 50% that of traditional doctors, as there is more competition for workers, and said doctors and nurses' salaries are directly in line with comprable salaries in Europe and Japan (a worker with a doctoral degree starts at $49,000 and averages around $79,000/yr versus $200,000/yr for national American doctoral averages).

Because of the aforementioned differences - no regulatory structure, no forced requirements from a medical association, but are rather state-requirement driven, cost of care is about 60% less for the exact same types of surgeries as they are in typical hospitals in America. Visits to the doctor are $35 at most clinics vs. >$70 at any regular clinic or doctors office.

Should a patient require extensive surgeries, any and all care without government assistance is rarely above $5,000 with most general surgeries even with anesthetics is below $1,000 including overstay at these hospitals - again, without government subsidies.

 

Do you want to guess what practice this is that offers the same quality of care as hospitals? For 40% or less of the price mind you - so low that insurance companies refuse to compete because the competition ensures they can't get into the field? Take a guess. That is the system I'd want for all of our hospitals, honestly. Because it works in this health care field, and I believe it demonstrates what government regulatory restructure and unions have done to the industry (as well as cost of care caps and pegs that are artificially created by the government).

couldnt have said it better, but incase there were still need for insurance, we should be able to buy it across state lines, increasing competion, lowering costs



Complete opposite of what should happen, of course. Single payer, complete annihilation of this whole "human health = profit" abomination we have going now

It's a service like education that is part of our package of human rights, and one that should therefore be provided centrally



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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Mr Khan said:
Complete opposite of what should happen, of course. Single payer, complete annihilation of this whole "human health = profit" abomination we have going now

It's a service like education that is part of our package of human rights, and one that should therefore be provided centrally

And look at the amazing American system of non-profit governmental schools. You know, the ones that graduate 35% of students in some cities.

Just because you believe its a right and should be centralized does not mean that it will run efficiently in America. The education system is proof of it.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

mrstickball said:
Mr Khan said:
Complete opposite of what should happen, of course. Single payer, complete annihilation of this whole "human health = profit" abomination we have going now

It's a service like education that is part of our package of human rights, and one that should therefore be provided centrally

And look at the amazing American system of non-profit governmental schools. You know, the ones that graduate 35% of students in some cities.

Just because you believe its a right and should be centralized does not mean that it will run efficiently in America. The education system is proof of it.

its also unconstitutional for the federal goverment to be involved in education, just one of the many reasons we should get rid of the dept. of education, it would save us billions.

states can have public school system, but it cant be at a national level



mrstickball said:
Mr Khan said:
Complete opposite of what should happen, of course. Single payer, complete annihilation of this whole "human health = profit" abomination we have going now

It's a service like education that is part of our package of human rights, and one that should therefore be provided centrally

And look at the amazing American system of non-profit governmental schools. You know, the ones that graduate 35% of students in some cities.

Just because you believe its a right and should be centralized does not mean that it will run efficiently in America. The education system is proof of it.

Educational issues come from the fact that the whole system is too decentralized as it is, which is why even statewide standardized tests are foolish because you're talking about tons of people taught from vastly different standards, then centralize other things, like teacher hiring



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

mrstickball said:
Mr Khan said:
Complete opposite of what should happen, of course. Single payer, complete annihilation of this whole "human health = profit" abomination we have going now

It's a service like education that is part of our package of human rights, and one that should therefore be provided centrally

And look at the amazing American system of non-profit governmental schools. You know, the ones that graduate 35% of students in some cities.

Just because you believe its a right and should be centralized does not mean that it will run efficiently in America. The education system is proof of it.

In Canada, our drop out rate is only 8.5% and our school system is predominantly made up of public schools.



Stats87 said:
mrstickball said:
Mr Khan said:
Complete opposite of what should happen, of course. Single payer, complete annihilation of this whole "human health = profit" abomination we have going now

It's a service like education that is part of our package of human rights, and one that should therefore be provided centrally

And look at the amazing American system of non-profit governmental schools. You know, the ones that graduate 35% of students in some cities.

Just because you believe its a right and should be centralized does not mean that it will run efficiently in America. The education system is proof of it.

In Canada, our drop out rate is only 8.5% and our school system is predominantly made up of public schools.

Run entirely by the provinces, who primarily delegate all decisions to small regional educational boards ...