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Forums - Politics Discussion - Why isn't perpetual high unemployment inevitable?

scottie said:
Crazymann said:
scottie said:
Crazymann said:
spurgeonryan said:

Don't be so quick to assume ignorance in anyone who disagrees with you. I grew up on a hobby farm, and we frequently had holidays to an actual farm. The guy who ran the place hated government subsidies, was making bank (as the phrase goes) without them. He paid his workers well (most were family, the rest became like family, my dad worked there for a year, and I grew close enough to consider this guy as an uncle)

 

If you are making a loss in the agriculture sector, you are farming wrong. Here's a checklist of things you might be doing

1) Overloading your fields - sure, you can squeeze 10% more now but you will fuck up your land and thus your future. If you consider farming to be risky, this is certainly what you are doing wrong.

2) Planting the wrong thing. If you grow rice in Australia you are a moron.

3) Using outdated and inefficient methods.

Perhaps you should take your own advise concerning assumptions and consider that your experience does not exptrapolate well to all farming operations.  What if you are growing properly, rotating crops as you should etc. but then a hail storm decimates your crop, but you still have bills to pay?  Insurance does not cover it all.  What about smut (assuming you know what that is) because some idiot down the road was not careful.  You cannot tell what the weather will do, and it IS a gamble.  Now, hopefully you have enough finanaces in reserve to weather the storm (pun intended), but that only goes so far. 

Also, if you know even half as much as you claim to, then you know how expensive modern farming equipment can be.  Those are some heavy bills to pay in hard times, and not all farms are even large enough to hire and pay workers. 

So kindly stop acting as if you know everything about agriculture.  Not all struggling farmers are doing so because they broke one your overly simplified rules.  Sometimes, luck and nature do fall into the equation.


I never claimed to know everything about agriculture. That is why I say things like "Using outdated and inefficient methods." instead of perfectly describing what the worst and best methods are. I do, however, know enough to be carrying on this conversation. You were rude to crazymann for no good reason and are being kind of rude to me. 

 

If a hail storm decimated a farmers crops, as you say, they should be able to cope very easily  - 1/10th of your crops wouldn't be all that significant. Regardless, how frequent are hailstorms of that severity in an area in which it's sensible to grow crops without planning for it?

 

As for your assertion that there is some capital cost associated with opening a farm. This is true, but not particularly important. There is capital (and risk) associated with any business. If you farm properly, the risks associated with it are fairly minimal. One such example of good practice is the planting of trees in and amonsgt your crops. These have many advantages, such as providing the crops with protection from wind (and even hail), vastly reducing soil erosion (ie making you need much less fertiliser), and they can be used as a source of sustainable timber, providing income even after a hailstorm or something. Other ways to diversify can also help to minimise risk.

 

Bookstore owners don't get taxpayer funding to sell unpopular books, and they don't get taxpayer funding if they overload their shelves and the books all fall down. I don't see why you would want farmers to get these things.

Whoa, that wasn't what I was implying at all.  I happen to be a libertarian, so I don't support such subsidies, and neither do the farmers in my family.  However, while the ideas you bring up about diversification are really good... in an ideal world.  They are quite simply not able to support themselves ONLY with farming as seems to be implied in your post.  Granted this is a small operation and a WHEAT operation, so they don't enjoy the support of the lobbyists pushing HFCS and ethanol on everyone - vastly driving up the cost of corn and starving the poor.   I don't exaggerate, as there have been corn riots in Mexico because of the inflated price of corn.  IF you had enough land and capital to use new equipment with modern conveniences, then I'm sure that a farm can do well consistently, but there are a LOT of farms in the midwest that are simply too small.  Much smaller than the one you visited apparently.

As it is most farming people have moved on to other trades (law and dentistry seem to be the most popular for some reason) because is just isn't that easy to make a living ONLY farming.  Not for small operations, anyway.  Now, am I saying that there isn't risk in every profession?  Certainly not.  However, ask the wheat farmers of Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas about there fortunes this year, and they will tell you how bleak it really is.  The majority of all of those crops have literally scorched and the entire region has been declared a loss - crop wise.  If they were able to properly invest and diversify then they might have enough to survive a summer like this (and family's area, THREE consecutive summers).   But that simply isn't always possible for a variety of reasons.

Me... I got out and found much more stable and lucrative employment, but I just don't agree with implying that farming is always easy.  Bigger operations may be insulated, small (family) farms that at one time made up the majority of the workforce mentioned in the OP are a dying concept because they are most certainly not.

As for me being rude, I was no more rude in spirit than someone implying that "farmers make bank" without the well needed qualifiers of "some" or "the ones I know."  As I said, not all crop farmers have ethanol (which is worse for the environment than standard fossil fuel) and HFCS (which needs to go away) to prop up prices.  You know it's bad when the corn lobby has to run propaganda on television assuring the sheep that HFCS is truely absorbed the same as cane sugar.... ah but that's another topic.  



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Hmm, re-read your posts. It seems you weren't being rude after all. I'm not sure whether I earlier misinterpreted something or not, either way, ignore that.

Droughts I think are one of the biggest examples of how farmers need to prepare for the future and not overwork the soil. All the farms I've seen are Australian, and they manage to do well even in drought. The Australian rice farmers, however, do not. I have no idea how much water wheat/corn use, so that may or may not be a case of people planting the wrong crop (and yes, I know the subsidies are there to encourage people to plant them, which I agree is stupid).

Going even more off topic, ethanol from biomass isn't necessarily bad. Growing crops specifically for the point of producing ethanol is, but growing crops for some other purpose, and then using the material that would otherwise be wasted for ethanol can be very good. A woodmill I went to used to waste ludicrous amounts of sawdust each year - the transport costs were higher than the value of the sawdust. So they installed an ethanol generator and used it to power part of the plant.

But I still stand by my claim that if you don't have the capital to plan your farm for the future, you probably shouldn't be farming.



Slightly off topic: don't you think it is a sign of big weakness in our social system and organisation that people are unemployed. I mean, think of a more rational world where there were 5 teachers in a class, where we had enough doctors and nurses to truly care for the sick and be less bureaucratical about it all. I can dream, I suppose.



Yes.

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scottie said:
Hmm, re-read your posts. It seems you weren't being rude after all. I'm not sure whether I earlier misinterpreted something or not, either way, ignore that.

Droughts I think are one of the biggest examples of how farmers need to prepare for the future and not overwork the soil. All the farms I've seen are Australian, and they manage to do well even in drought. The Australian rice farmers, however, do not. I have no idea how much water wheat/corn use, so that may or may not be a case of people planting the wrong crop (and yes, I know the subsidies are there to encourage people to plant them, which I agree is stupid).

Going even more off topic, ethanol from biomass isn't necessarily bad. Growing crops specifically for the point of producing ethanol is, but growing crops for some other purpose, and then using the material that would otherwise be wasted for ethanol can be very good. A woodmill I went to used to waste ludicrous amounts of sawdust each year - the transport costs were higher than the value of the sawdust. So they installed an ethanol generator and used it to power part of the plant.

But I still stand by my claim that if you don't have the capital to plan your farm for the future, you probably shouldn't be farming.

Hey, no worries about the misinterpretation, tone of voice is difficult to convey on the internet.  Anyway, I think we have discussed this to death, but I do agree that smart planning is vital.  However, it is never fun watching your rainy day fund being wiped out by natural causes.

FYI, wheat is a staple crop of the midwestern USA, with hard red winter wheat being grown in TX, OK, KS, NE etc. and spring wheat sometimes being grown farther east.  Actualy, until hard red winter wheat, there was little that could consistantly be grown in some of those places.  Over the years, the "bread basket of America" was responcible for most of the wheat production... and feeding millions and millions of people.

I agree about biofuels... but I do feel sorry for the people who can no longer afford to make tortillas because of the price of corn (again I wish I was making this up).

Also, I had no idea that rice could even be grown in Australia... I never thought the climate would be wet enough.  That's a new fact for the day.