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Forums - Gaming - Pachter: Overworked devs need to find another job

superchunk said:
This article and comments really need to be put into realistic terms.

THIS IS NOT HOW ALL SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT WORKS!!!


I don't think this article was meant as software development in general, it was meant as specific to the games industry. 

Crunch sucks and I hate working 60-80 weeks especially when I have to do that for longer than two weeks but it's just one of the sad facts of the gaming industry.  It sucks that it's accepted as the norm but that's the way it unfortunately is.



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Degausser said:
Dragon_Lord said:
I don't get these companies strategy wouldn't it be cheaper to hire more people and not pay anyone overtime?


 As far as I'm aware the very 'problem' with these crunch times is that the employees are paid no over-time - or paid at all for the extra time they put in due to the nature of their contracts. 

This article snips certain things Pachter says without really explaining his full points. Basically - he did concede that over 3-6 months or so (1 year + rumoured at Team Bondi) crunch time is 'too much' and wrong. However, when you go into this industry, you know you're going to have unpaid crunch time and you know how much you'll be paid.

 He then went on to say about people complaining about not being paid enough / for crunch time. His counter argument was that if the game you're making launches and is a big success then a % of the money it makes go into a 'profit pool' which is then split up amongst the team who make the game. Insomniac games have sent their entire devlopemet team + famlies on holiday after a successful launch before, and the profit pool payments which the Infinity Ward guys are suing Activision over are around $78m... to be split between around 300 employees... So although the crunch time might be unpaid, you could unltimately get a huge pay off if all goes well.

 I'd tend to agree with him for the most part but crunch times should last longer then 'normal' or then promised. It sounds like the Bondi guys went into crunch time 3 months before launch, and then delays of the game meant their crunch times (6 day weeks working 12 hours+) lasted for 18 months or so :/. That's crossing the line, if true.

If you get a certain % of the overall revenue I can see how that's fair, but if you are doing it for more then a month someone screwed up somewhere or you are just being exploited 



twesterm said:
Dragon_Lord said:
I don't get these companies strategy wouldn't it be cheaper to hire more people and not pay anyone overtime?


No, read about the Mythical Man Month as to why.

Essentially, it boils down to one woman can make a baby in nine months but three woman cannot make a baby in three months.  Adding more people does not always get things done quicker because some things depend on others.  You could have 1000 people working on a project but if you only have the bandwidth for 100 people then you have 900 people twiddling their thumbs.

You can hire 300 people and have work being done 24/7 with 3 8 hour shifts 



Dragon_Lord said:
twesterm said:
Dragon_Lord said:
I don't get these companies strategy wouldn't it be cheaper to hire more people and not pay anyone overtime?


No, read about the Mythical Man Month as to why.

Essentially, it boils down to one woman can make a baby in nine months but three woman cannot make a baby in three months.  Adding more people does not always get things done quicker because some things depend on others.  You could have 1000 people working on a project but if you only have the bandwidth for 100 people then you have 900 people twiddling their thumbs.

You can hire 300 people and have work being done 24/7 with 3 8 hour shifts 

Not really because adding multiple hands on a single item can (and will) also increase time. 

Really, just read the link.



twesterm said:
Dragon_Lord said:
twesterm said:
Dragon_Lord said:
I don't get these companies strategy wouldn't it be cheaper to hire more people and not pay anyone overtime?


No, read about the Mythical Man Month as to why.

Essentially, it boils down to one woman can make a baby in nine months but three woman cannot make a baby in three months.  Adding more people does not always get things done quicker because some things depend on others.  You could have 1000 people working on a project but if you only have the bandwidth for 100 people then you have 900 people twiddling their thumbs.

You can hire 300 people and have work being done 24/7 with 3 8 hour shifts 

Not really because adding multiple hands on a single item can (and will) also increase time. 

Really, just read the link.

If they actually paid overtime which I'm pretty sure they are legally obigated in some places, it would be more then the increased time



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Dragon_Lord said:
twesterm said:
Dragon_Lord said:
twesterm said:
Dragon_Lord said:
I don't get these companies strategy wouldn't it be cheaper to hire more people and not pay anyone overtime?


No, read about the Mythical Man Month as to why.

Essentially, it boils down to one woman can make a baby in nine months but three woman cannot make a baby in three months.  Adding more people does not always get things done quicker because some things depend on others.  You could have 1000 people working on a project but if you only have the bandwidth for 100 people then you have 900 people twiddling their thumbs.

You can hire 300 people and have work being done 24/7 with 3 8 hour shifts 

Not really because adding multiple hands on a single item can (and will) also increase time. 

Really, just read the link.

If they actually paid overtime which I'm pretty sure they are legally obigated in some places, it would be more then the increased time

You misunderstand what I'm saying-- it might take one person 8 hours to finish one work item.  It's flawed thinking that two people will take four hours because that's ignoring the fact that the two people will work different and there's time involved in transferring the work from one person to the next.

One more time-- read the link.

Piling people onto a project does not always help.



twesterm said:
Pachter's right in that every studio crunches and if you can't handle that you should get out, but he's wrong in thinking that devs can't be overworked. Crunch is a common thing but if you're crunching more than two weeks in a row you start losing productivity and at about a month you're getting less done than you would be in a non-crunch day.

And, yeah, there really wasn't any excuse for the Team Bondi stuff. I don't expect to get paid overtime but if I'm working until 3:00 AM it's alright to get in 9:15AM. Crunch is just something that has to be accepted but you have to treat your employess well and with respect. That's what the whole Team Bondi thing is about.


Ahem.

I work in software development, been doing so for 13 years.

I make a lot more than any game developer.

We don't crunch, period, we haven't in the last 8 years.

Maybe game developers should actually listen to Patcher and move to other development jobs ( because software developers not in gaming are still hiring massively, Google added 2500 employees last quarter) to teach game studios a lesson.........

 

I did manage a team of 50 developers spread accross 3 countries for 6 years, crunch is just the result of bad planning and management imo. Accepting from the start that there will be crunch is already failing......



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

kitler53 said:
superchunk said:
kitler53 said:
i'm not sure about that whole team bandi thing but if you want a well paying job in the USA you better expect that you will be working late and working weekends.


That is absolutely bs. Read my post above.


i'd actually say your post is BS.  performance is always constantly evaluated and putting in a 35-40 hour week when everyone around you is doing more puts you at the bottom of the list of valuable assets or alternatively, at the top of the list of people fired.


I work low 40 hours week, haven't worked a week-end in 8 years, make low 6 figures salary and I have 5 weeks of vacations...

Oh and I work in the US as a software developer...

Oh and everyone in the company is pretty much like me......



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

And people wonder why a lot of the highly skilled Software Engineers want nothing to do with the gaming industry. Work overtime AND not make as much? No thanks. I myself was looking into becoming a game developer, but when I found that I would have to make a 50% sacrifice of my salary, as well as trying to meet ridiculous deadlines, I declined.

If you want to see true innovation come back to the gaming industry, execs need to pay for the skill, not lock software developers in contract and expect to run a coding sweatshop.



twesterm said:
Dragon_Lord said:
twesterm said:
Dragon_Lord said:
twesterm said:
Dragon_Lord said:
I don't get these companies strategy wouldn't it be cheaper to hire more people and not pay anyone overtime?


No, read about the Mythical Man Month as to why.

Essentially, it boils down to one woman can make a baby in nine months but three woman cannot make a baby in three months.  Adding more people does not always get things done quicker because some things depend on others.  You could have 1000 people working on a project but if you only have the bandwidth for 100 people then you have 900 people twiddling their thumbs.

You can hire 300 people and have work being done 24/7 with 3 8 hour shifts 

Not really because adding multiple hands on a single item can (and will) also increase time. 

Really, just read the link.

If they actually paid overtime which I'm pretty sure they are legally obigated in some places, it would be more then the increased time

You misunderstand what I'm saying-- it might take one person 8 hours to finish one work item.  It's flawed thinking that two people will take four hours because that's ignoring the fact that the two people will work different and there's time involved in transferring the work from one person to the next.

One more time-- read the link.

Piling people onto a project does not always help.

it doesn't increase the time that much time, maybe 1 extra hour every 8 at most, far less then overtime payout would be get some common sense, it seems to me the only reason they make people work those hours is because they get away with not paying them