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Forums - Politics Discussion - Can a movement similar to fascism emerge in the US?

 

Can a movement similar to fascism emerge in the US?

Yes 67 56.78%
 
No 21 17.80%
 
Not a "movement sim... 27 22.88%
 
Total:115

I believe it is possible, though at the moment unlikely. Your political situation certainly isn't healthy at the moment, I think that is what really needs to change in the short-medium term.



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Kasz216 said:

Except you know... your rant is more accurate then you'd expect.

Marx for example is actually considered one of the big three founders of sociology.

You can't actually get through a social sciences degree without being taught a lot of socialism... as there are various theories and branches that rely pretty heavily on it.  Sociology is currently basically a case of "The Liberals vs the Socialists." (Liberals in the classic sense... and socialists in the sense of the left wing/statist/democrats.)

It's less about "So and so should be treated the same" or anything like that, but more the base and the ways they went about it.  However to do so you need to read there works directly.  Meaning direct exposure to said ideas... which in general is predudicial even with a teacher who isn't particularly left leaning with no counterweight arguement.

Entire disciplines specifically teach left leaning theory automatically... and most teachers are more likely to believe in said left wing ideas... seems pretty obvious.  If you actually think political affiliation doesn't effect how things are taught...

Why don't we look at another field where nuetrality is supposed to be the rule.  News reporting.  In the US I can name on one hand the number of reporters who's political affiliation i can't tell just by watching them.  Well actually... I can't name one.  Even Anderson Cooper you can tell though he's best at it.

The only field you could argue specifically teaches right wing theory is economics... and even then not all economics do so.

Marx founded sociology as much as Freud founded psychology. The two of them laid out theories that had some good core ideas, but were not verifiable (though part of what failed Marx's predictions was his economic prediction that wages would remain stagnant even as industrial economies grew so that only the capitalists would see the benefit of growth), but their understandings were too simplistic for modernity

The key is the difference between disciplines and schools of thought. A discipline is nominally tone neutral, but a school of thought within that discipline is where the bias comes in. (e.g. you have "Economics" and then you have "Keynesian Economics" or "Neoliberal economics."), and schools of thought wax and wane in popularity, but no discipline is itself inherently set one way or another



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Except you know... your rant is more accurate then you'd expect.

Marx for example is actually considered one of the big three founders of sociology.

You can't actually get through a social sciences degree without being taught a lot of socialism... as there are various theories and branches that rely pretty heavily on it.  Sociology is currently basically a case of "The Liberals vs the Socialists." (Liberals in the classic sense... and socialists in the sense of the left wing/statist/democrats.)

It's less about "So and so should be treated the same" or anything like that, but more the base and the ways they went about it.  However to do so you need to read there works directly.  Meaning direct exposure to said ideas... which in general is predudicial even with a teacher who isn't particularly left leaning with no counterweight arguement.

Entire disciplines specifically teach left leaning theory automatically... and most teachers are more likely to believe in said left wing ideas... seems pretty obvious.  If you actually think political affiliation doesn't effect how things are taught...

Why don't we look at another field where nuetrality is supposed to be the rule.  News reporting.  In the US I can name on one hand the number of reporters who's political affiliation i can't tell just by watching them.  Well actually... I can't name one.  Even Anderson Cooper you can tell though he's best at it.

The only field you could argue specifically teaches right wing theory is economics... and even then not all economics do so.

Marx founded sociology as much as Freud founded psychology. The two of them laid out theories that had some good core ideas, but were not verifiable (though part of what failed Marx's predictions was his economic prediction that wages would remain stagnant even as industrial economies grew so that only the capitalists would see the benefit of growth), but their understandings were too simplistic for modernity

The key is the difference between disciplines and schools of thought. A discipline is nominally tone neutral, but a school of thought within that discipline is where the bias comes in. (e.g. you have "Economics" and then you have "Keynesian Economics" or "Neoliberal economics."), and schools of thought wax and wane in popularity, but no discipline is itself inherently set one way or another

The difference between Marx and Frued is that there is nothing that really contradicts Marx.

Unlike Pscyhology where Fruedianism is generaly looked down opon for it's unscientific methods vs the other 3 main schools. (Which ironically all 4 scientifically have the same success therapy rate wise.)

There is nothing much in sociology that actually contradicts Marx works... just some branches downplay the need for violent class revolution... which basically EVERYONE does now a days anyway... and which Marx himself was doing before he died.

Well outside of Eastern Marxist Sociology.... if that's even still around.

Marx, Durkheim and Weber were combined together.  Unlike Psychology where the big forms are all completely distinct and opposing forces.

The Marxist foundation is still in use, while the Fruedian one has long been abandoned by everyone... but fruedians.  Which are few and far between, and the general contempt shown towards Freudians is generally apparent and applied in the classroom. 

It's also very vocally apparent in methods courses.



badgenome said:
sapphi_snake said:

What views are not accepted in universities, if not views that are considered hateful (sexism, racism, homophobia etc.)? What other people can feel "victimised" for their views, if not racists, misogynists and homophobes?

Anything that "offends" the wrong person, basically. There's a horrible arbitrariness to the whole thing. If you're seriously interested in what sort of things universities can get up to, you can check out thefire.org as they defend a lot of people whose rights have been squashed by ivory tower dickheads. For instance, a few years back a janitor (who was also a student) was fired from Purdue for reading during his lunch hour. It was a book about how some Notre Dame students fought the KKK back in the '20s, and a black woman who saw him reading the book was instantly offended and went and complained about racial harassment.  Even though the guy made clear to his bosses the nature of the book, it didn't mean a fucking thing. A black person was offended, and we can't have that. Only the ACLU and FIRE getting involved eventually cleared the guy's name.

Oh my, that's one of the most irrational things I've ever heard. Does this happen often?



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

HappySqurriel said:

An english literature professor I had went into a 15 minute bigoted rant against evangelical christians that would have been considered hate speech in Canada if it were any non-christian religion she was talking about. Don't make any assumptions that when progressive individuals talk about "Tolerance" that they really intend to tolerate anyone's beliefs or views other than the ones they arbitrarily decide are in need of protection. Much like how the most vocal anti-gay crusaders have a nasty habit of turning out to be homosexual, quite often the most vocal tollerance-crusaders turn out to have the most bigoted world view; and this can be explained by a psychological defence mechanism called reaction formation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_formation).

As MrKhan said, such inappropriate behaviour happens sometimes, and all kinds of opinions are expressed. You can't say that it's only "liberal" who do such things, and I honestly doubt that it's such a common occurence from either side. I live in Romania, where things like integrity and professionalism are definately not the norm, and I've never had such an experience where a teacher/proffesor goes into a bigoted rant, nor have I heard of someone else having one (the closest were various religion teachers from middle school and high school going into anti-chatholic and antri-protestant rants, but at least then it was connected to the subject at hand).



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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sapphi_snake said:

Oh my, that's one of the most irrational things I've ever heard. Does this happen often?

More often than it should, that's for sure. Political correctness isn't rational, and when it's more important to be politically correct than actually correct, bad shit happens.

The funny thing is how "right-winged" the same colleges can act in other ways, such as UC Berkeley forbidding student organizations to use the words "California" or "Berkeley" in their names- as if the university owns the whole city and state. And Berkeley is pretty infamous as the most batshit crazy far left university in the country.



badgenome said:
sapphi_snake said:

Oh my, that's one of the most irrational things I've ever heard. Does this happen often?

More often than it should, that's for sure. Political correctness isn't rational, and when it's more important to be politically correct than actually correct, bad shit happens.

The funny thing is how "right-winged" the same colleges can act in other ways, such as UC Berkeley forbidding student organizations to use the words "California" or "Berkeley" in their names- as if the university owns the whole city and state. And Berkeley is pretty infamous as the most batshit crazy far left university in the country.

The site actualyl had a small number of cases, considerign the size of the US, and the large number of schools (which is a good thing honestly).

Realistically, political correctness is quite a good strategy if you want to make sure you get along fine with everyone. The problem with anti-PC people is that they don't want to accept any consequences for their actions. And I'm not talking about legal consequences (which should only exist in certain situations, and the motivation for such consequences should not be that the message is "offensive"), but the fact that private individuals who are offended by such language choose not to associate with them. Not to mention that they're hypocritical (upset if their views are insulted, but have no problem insulting others, and often present such insults as "religious expression").



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

osamanobama said:

also, i just realized your arguement is flawed in another huge way.

here in the US we have the 1st amendment, that allows for free speech. so even if someone didnt like another person with a different skin color, different genitalia, or different sexual preference. their right to do so is still guaranteed.

and to think universities are non biased and only want to stop hateful views, i just blissful ignorance.

The 1st amendment only referres to the fact that the Government cannot surpress free speech (and even so, there are restrictions, like libel and child pornography; hate speech is an exception is most places). A private organization can still fire someone if they behave against their policy.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

osamanobama said:

also, i just realized your arguement is flawed in another huge way.

here in the US we have the 1st amendment, that allows for free speech. so even if someone didnt like another person with a different skin color, different genitalia, or different sexual preference. their right to do so is still guaranteed.

and to think universities are non biased and only want to stop hateful views, i just blissful ignorance.

The 1st amendment only referres to the fact that the Government cannot surpress free speech (and even so, there are restrictions, like libel and child pornography; hate speech is an exception is most places). A private organization can still fire someone if they behave against their policy.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
badgenome said:
sapphi_snake said:

Oh my, that's one of the most irrational things I've ever heard. Does this happen often?

More often than it should, that's for sure. Political correctness isn't rational, and when it's more important to be politically correct than actually correct, bad shit happens.

The funny thing is how "right-winged" the same colleges can act in other ways, such as UC Berkeley forbidding student organizations to use the words "California" or "Berkeley" in their names- as if the university owns the whole city and state. And Berkeley is pretty infamous as the most batshit crazy far left university in the country.

The site actualyl had a small number of cases, considerign the size of the US, and the large number of schools (which is a good thing honestly).

Realistically, political correctness is quite a good strategy if you want to make sure you get along fine with everyone. The problem with anti-PC people is that they don't want to accept any consequences for their actions. And I'm not talking about legal consequences (which should only exist in certain situations, and the motivation for such consequences should not be that the message is "offensive"), but the fact that private individuals who are offended by such language choose not to associate with them. Not to mention that they're hypocritical (upset if their views are insulted, but have no problem insulting others, and often present such insults as "religious expression").

It's not really such a small number of cases given that FIRE is only about a decade old and isn't nearly as large or well established as the ACLU, which handles exponentially more such cases. But FIRE is an easy place to look for this kind of stuff because unlike other free speech organizations, they deal exclusively with academia.

You seem to have a very narrow and glorified view of how political correctness works, I think. We are not talking about the choice of private individuals refusing to associate with people who offend them, which I don't think anyone in the world could disagree with. We're talking about institutions of learning which receive taxpayer dollars telling people they can't say or do offensive things while permitting other people to say and do offensive things, simply because they happen to agree with those particular offensive things. I mean, I get that your view of this issue is strongly colored by where you live, and probably if I lived in an intolerant backwater, I'd feel the same way as you, but I don't, so I don't.