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sapphi_snake on 30 June 2011
Viper1 said:
sapphi_snake said:
Viper1 said:
sapphi_snake said:

That first article looks like propaganda itself. It was even written by a right-winger from Poland. His argument regarding people giving more to the poor now is quite nonsensical. IT's almost like comparing apples to oranges.

Actually, libertarianism advocates social help from the people.  Donating, giving time to volunteer, etc...   The concept is the poor get help more directly instead of through a middle channel (government) so that service is much more efficicent and personal.   It also provides a better economy in that there would be fewer poor to begin with and helps guide those that are poor but are capable of taking care of themselves to do so instead of relying on an entity to do that for you.

Other than t being more "personal", I really don't see any benefit (and honestly, this benefit is more to satisfy a selfish need of the people who volunteer, rather than help those in need). I don't see how private charaties in their current form do any of the underlined.

The problem you are seeing is government itself.  The private sector can never fully service the market if the government is offering much the same services.  In fact, the government corners the market in some facets making it extremely difficult for the private sector to offer services at all.  Not to forget the red tape involved.  The government gets in the way to the point that for many people they feel it's not worth the BS.

But the real kicker is that the government at times of emergency will actually ban non-government aide and support.  I recall during Hurricane Katrina that FEMA forced dozens of full sized 53' trucks to turn around and dozens already there to leave.  They were actualy from Wal-mart, full of food and supplies and were there long before FEMA showed up.  The Department of Homeland Security also prevented the American Red Cross from supplying food.

Why did the Government do this exactly?



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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Badassbab on 30 June 2011

 

I believe that the problem is that we've enabled a hybrid Keynesian-Friedman alliance in which markets were de-regulated, but risk was socialized in order to spur consumer demand, which has created a screwed up market with fewer risks than what are needed to keep the market honest. The question then becomes an argument of which came first: the Keynesian policies or the free-market policies.


Definately agree with the last statement. The risk has fallen to the tax payers to enable the profits to be privatised and the already rich to get supremely wealthy and then use the little guy to bail them out should they require it.






Kasz216 on 30 June 2011
sapphi_snake said:
Viper1 said:
sapphi_snake said:
Viper1 said:
sapphi_snake said:

That first article looks like propaganda itself. It was even written by a right-winger from Poland. His argument regarding people giving more to the poor now is quite nonsensical. IT's almost like comparing apples to oranges.

Actually, libertarianism advocates social help from the people.  Donating, giving time to volunteer, etc...   The concept is the poor get help more directly instead of through a middle channel (government) so that service is much more efficicent and personal.   It also provides a better economy in that there would be fewer poor to begin with and helps guide those that are poor but are capable of taking care of themselves to do so instead of relying on an entity to do that for you.

Other than t being more "personal", I really don't see any benefit (and honestly, this benefit is more to satisfy a selfish need of the people who volunteer, rather than help those in need). I don't see how private charaties in their current form do any of the underlined.

The problem you are seeing is government itself.  The private sector can never fully service the market if the government is offering much the same services.  In fact, the government corners the market in some facets making it extremely difficult for the private sector to offer services at all.  Not to forget the red tape involved.  The government gets in the way to the point that for many people they feel it's not worth the BS.

But the real kicker is that the government at times of emergency will actually ban non-government aide and support.  I recall during Hurricane Katrina that FEMA forced dozens of full sized 53' trucks to turn around and dozens already there to leave.  They were actualy from Wal-mart, full of food and supplies and were there long before FEMA showed up.  The Department of Homeland Security also prevented the American Red Cross from supplying food.

Why did the Government do this exactly?

Bueracratic Red Tape... they turned awaya  TON of support.  Technically once Fema gets there, if you offer any help outside of them, your committing a crime I believe. 

From Wiki

 

"FEMA was accused of deliberately slowing things down, in an effort to ensure that all assistance and relief workers were coordinated properly. For example, Michael D. Brown, the head of FEMA, on August 29, urged all fire and emergency services departments not to respond to counties and states affected by Hurricane Katrina without being requested and lawfully dispatched by state and local authorities under mutual aid agreements and the Emergency Management Assistance Compact.[27]

FEMA also interfered in the Astor Hotel's' plans to hire 10 buses to carry approximately 500 guests to higher ground. Federal officials commandeered the buses, and told the guests to join thousands of other evacuees at the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center.[28] In other instances of FEMA asserting its authority to only ultimately make things worse, FEMA officials turned away three Wal-Mart trailer trucks loaded with water, prevented the Coast Guard from delivering 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel, and on Saturday they cut the Jefferson Parish emergency communications line, leading the sheriff to restore it and post armed guards to protect it from FEMA.[29] The Wal-Mart delivery had actually been turned away a week earlier, on Sunday, August 28, before the hurricane struck. A caravan of 13 Wal-Mart tractor trailers was reported in New Orleans by September 1.[30] Additionally, more than 50 civilian aircraft responding to separate requests for evacuations from hospitals and other agencies swarmed to the area a day after Katrina hit, but FEMA blocked their efforts. Aircraft operators complained that FEMA waved off a number of evacuation attempts, saying the rescuers were not authorized. "Many planes and helicopters simply sat idle," said Thomas Judge, president of the Assn. of Air Medical Services.[31]"  "

That's not even all of it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_government_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina#Federal_Emergency_Management_Agency

As for Obama... after The BP spill they banned  a bunch off the oil skimming boats that were available and could of removed oil from the water because the boats didn't remove ENOUGH Oil.   It didn't matter that it would of removed more oil faster and lessened the enviromental harm.  Because they didn't remove enough oil they would techinically breaking the law because the water they would be putting back in the ocean would of broke the law because by putting the water back in.... they would be guilty of "polluting" according to EPA regulations.

Rescue boats too were a problem.

http://bpoilspillcomp.wordpress.com/2010/06/27/boats-created-to-help-gulf-wildlife-turned-away-find-out-why/



sapphi_snake on 30 June 2011
Kasz216 said:

Bueracratic Red Tape... they turned awaya  TON of support.  Technically once Fema gets there, if you offer any help outside of them, your committing a crime I believe. 

From Wiki

 

"FEMA was accused of deliberately slowing things down, in an effort to ensure that all assistance and relief workers were coordinated properly. For example, Michael D. Brown, the head of FEMA, on August 29, urged all fire and emergency services departments not to respond to counties and states affected by Hurricane Katrina without being requested and lawfully dispatched by state and local authorities under mutual aid agreements and the Emergency Management Assistance Compact.[27]

FEMA also interfered in the Astor Hotel's' plans to hire 10 buses to carry approximately 500 guests to higher ground. Federal officials commandeered the buses, and told the guests to join thousands of other evacuees at the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center.[28] In other instances of FEMA asserting its authority to only ultimately make things worse, FEMA officials turned away three Wal-Mart trailer trucks loaded with water, prevented the Coast Guard from delivering 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel, and on Saturday they cut the Jefferson Parish emergency communications line, leading the sheriff to restore it and post armed guards to protect it from FEMA.[29] The Wal-Mart delivery had actually been turned away a week earlier, on Sunday, August 28, before the hurricane struck. A caravan of 13 Wal-Mart tractor trailers was reported in New Orleans by September 1.[30] Additionally, more than 50 civilian aircraft responding to separate requests for evacuations from hospitals and other agencies swarmed to the area a day after Katrina hit, but FEMA blocked their efforts. Aircraft operators complained that FEMA waved off a number of evacuation attempts, saying the rescuers were not authorized. "Many planes and helicopters simply sat idle," said Thomas Judge, president of the Assn. of Air Medical Services.[31]"  "

After The BP spill they banned  a bunch off the oil skimming boats that were available and could of removed oil from the water because the boats didn't remove ENOUGH Oil.   It didn't matter that it would of removed more oil faster and lessened the enviromental harm.  Because they didn't remove enough oil they would techinically breaking the law because the water they would be putting back in the ocean would of broke the law because by putting the water back in.... they would be guilty of "polluting" according to EPA regulations.

Rescue boats too were a problem.

http://bpoilspillcomp.wordpress.com/2010/06/27/boats-created-to-help-gulf-wildlife-turned-away-find-out-why/

O_O

The fact that the part I bolded, underlined and put in italics had to happen is grousome. Why would they turn down free help? I cannot believe something like this would seriously happen. There have to be some serious reformes done to this FEMA thing.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Kasz216 on 30 June 2011
sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:

Bueracratic Red Tape... they turned awaya  TON of support.  Technically once Fema gets there, if you offer any help outside of them, your committing a crime I believe. 

From Wiki

 

"FEMA was accused of deliberately slowing things down, in an effort to ensure that all assistance and relief workers were coordinated properly. For example, Michael D. Brown, the head of FEMA, on August 29, urged all fire and emergency services departments not to respond to counties and states affected by Hurricane Katrina without being requested and lawfully dispatched by state and local authorities under mutual aid agreements and the Emergency Management Assistance Compact.[27]

FEMA also interfered in the Astor Hotel's' plans to hire 10 buses to carry approximately 500 guests to higher ground. Federal officials commandeered the buses, and told the guests to join thousands of other evacuees at the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center.[28] In other instances of FEMA asserting its authority to only ultimately make things worse, FEMA officials turned away three Wal-Mart trailer trucks loaded with water, prevented the Coast Guard from delivering 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel, and on Saturday they cut the Jefferson Parish emergency communications line, leading the sheriff to restore it and post armed guards to protect it from FEMA.[29] The Wal-Mart delivery had actually been turned away a week earlier, on Sunday, August 28, before the hurricane struck. A caravan of 13 Wal-Mart tractor trailers was reported in New Orleans by September 1.[30] Additionally, more than 50 civilian aircraft responding to separate requests for evacuations from hospitals and other agencies swarmed to the area a day after Katrina hit, but FEMA blocked their efforts. Aircraft operators complained that FEMA waved off a number of evacuation attempts, saying the rescuers were not authorized. "Many planes and helicopters simply sat idle," said Thomas Judge, president of the Assn. of Air Medical Services.[31]"  "

After The BP spill they banned  a bunch off the oil skimming boats that were available and could of removed oil from the water because the boats didn't remove ENOUGH Oil.   It didn't matter that it would of removed more oil faster and lessened the enviromental harm.  Because they didn't remove enough oil they would techinically breaking the law because the water they would be putting back in the ocean would of broke the law because by putting the water back in.... they would be guilty of "polluting" according to EPA regulations.

Rescue boats too were a problem.

http://bpoilspillcomp.wordpress.com/2010/06/27/boats-created-to-help-gulf-wildlife-turned-away-find-out-why/

O_O

The fact that the part I bolded, underlined and put in italics had to happen is grousome. Why would they turn down free help? I cannot believe something like this would seriously happen. There have to be some serious reformes done to this FEMA thing.

You think that's bad?  Try this line....

"A September 16, 2005 CNN article about Chalmette Medical Center stated, "Doctors eager to help sick and injured evacuees were handed mops by federal officials who expressed concern about legal liability... And so they mopped, while people died around them."[35]"

Why did they turn down free help?

Because when Fema takes over... there is no room for private help anymore... that's how government works.

All aid must go through Fema first... and if Fema either doesn't want it, or can't process all the help, or it doesn't fit the stupidly narrow and percise government guidelines... it gets delayed, or turned away.




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sapphi_snake on 30 June 2011
Kasz216 said:

You think that's bad?  Try this line....

"A September 16, 2005 CNN article about Chalmette Medical Center stated, "Doctors eager to help sick and injured evacuees were handed mops by federal officials who expressed concern about legal liability... And so they mopped, while people died around them."[35]"

Why did they turn down free help?

Because when Fema takes over... there is no room for private help anymore.  All aid must go through Fema first... and if Fema either doesn't want it, or can't process all the help, it gets delayed, or turned away.

As I said, why don't you guys try to push for some reformes?



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Kasz216 on 30 June 2011
sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:

You think that's bad?  Try this line....

"A September 16, 2005 CNN article about Chalmette Medical Center stated, "Doctors eager to help sick and injured evacuees were handed mops by federal officials who expressed concern about legal liability... And so they mopped, while people died around them."[35]"

Why did they turn down free help?

Because when Fema takes over... there is no room for private help anymore.  All aid must go through Fema first... and if Fema either doesn't want it, or can't process all the help, it gets delayed, or turned away.

As I said, why don't you guys try to push for some reformes?


There really isn't any way to reform it.  I don't think the US is particularly unique in this.

Could push for dergulation I guess. 



Viper1 on 30 June 2011
sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:

You think that's bad?  Try this line....

"A September 16, 2005 CNN article about Chalmette Medical Center stated, "Doctors eager to help sick and injured evacuees were handed mops by federal officials who expressed concern about legal liability... And so they mopped, while people died around them."[35]"

Why did they turn down free help?

Because when Fema takes over... there is no room for private help anymore.  All aid must go through Fema first... and if Fema either doesn't want it, or can't process all the help, it gets delayed, or turned away.

As I said, why don't you guys try to push for some reformes?

The government doesn't want to have it reformed.  Isn't the dirrection you've seen the past few decades toward government intervention on everything proof they WANT to handle our lives for us?    The government doesn't think the people or the private sector are capable of taking care of themselves.

 

Even when we try to reform government entities, those in power do all they can to block it, dilute it or misinform the Congress on the facts.  Look at the bailouts.  Look at what happened with HR 1207 ( The Federal Reserve Transparency Act).  It had 320 co-sponsors (an absolutely massive volume for a bill) but in the end the language of the bill was altered and stuffed into a larger bill filled with things the co-sponsors would never vote for which ruined the point of the bill.

We are not going to get reforms to anything the government and those in power do not want reformed.  And it's only getting worse with each passing year.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

forest-spirit on 30 June 2011

Economic Left/Right: -8.25

Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.69

 



sapphi_snake on 30 June 2011
Viper1 said:

The government doesn't want to have it reformed.  Isn't the dirrection you've seen the past few decades toward government intervention on everything proof they WANT to handle our lives for us?    The government doesn't think the people or the private sector are capable of taking care of themselves.

Hmmm, well the Government does have people in it, people that are elected by the General population. And I don't really think that the private sectorsuffers very much, considering that their lobbysts make sure no laws that are harmful to them get passed.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)