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Forums - Microsoft - More details on Mass Effect 3's Kinect usage

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Hapimeses said:
Rainbird said:

2) No one has been complaining spotty voice recognition from the languages Microsoft support at the moment. We'll see if that changes when they launch the next batch of supported languages.

3) Less easy or effective? It looks way faster than going through a bunch of menus for giving your squad commands, not to mention hellishly more immersive. The storytelling aspect might not be easier or faster, but it has potential to be much more immersive I think. And it's not like you need good response time for that...

I'm going to call you out on these. I think your enthusiam for the tech is perhaps blinding you to some obvious flaws.

2) The Kinect often fails to get one of my voice commands correct. It is not 100% accurate at all. Certainly nowhere near as accurate as pressing A.

3) It will be very much slower. Let me explain why it is in two important ways:

Assume the order I want to give is for Tali to arm a Shotgun. This is as simple an order as I can imagine. Choices for this are:

i) Say 'Tali: Shotgun'.

ii) Press LB and select the Shotgun.

The first option, i), not only takes longer in practice, as it takes more time to utter the words clearly than it does to select the shotgun (which takes a fraction of a second once practiced), but it also takes far, far longer in-game. During play, option i) takes a second or two, during which time you wil be shot, or the state of the battlefield may even have changed; option ii), by comparison, is instantaneous, as the game pauses while the order is sent.

In short, voice commands are always slower. More immersive, probably, but much slower, and also considerably less accurate. And I don't just mean in terms of recognising quickly uttered phrases (which it will not always do as I mentioned in 2 above, especially as voices will frequently be excited), but I mean for accurately targetting bad guys as I mentioned in my previous post.

That all said, perhaps it will work in a way I simply don't expect. However, having played many games with voice recognition, both good and bad, I kinda doubt it.

2) Voice commands aren't supported where I live, so I go by what seems to be happening on the forums, and I haven't seen a single person complain. If that's not the way it is, then fair enough, I haven't exactly done any deep investigation here.

3) I guess it depends on play style. I've never been using my squad in detail enough to change a characters weapon, in combat more than maybe five times throughout any of the games. I've never gotten to the point where I know the placements of the different abilities in the menus by heart either, so for me, voice commands seem like more fun in that they add immersion (hopefully), while giving me a less cluttered experience.

If you're playing on a higher difficulty then I agree it's probably not good enough, but for me, that's not going to be an issue.



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Potable_Toe said:
Hapimeses said:

I found the section that touched on this in the interview between Geoff Keighley and Don Mattrick on GTTV revealing. Watch the video here (the relevant section is between 2.45 and 3.02, but there is other good stuff in there). In short, Don makes it pretty clear that a mic could do the job just as well (which, obviously, it could).

So, Microsoft, in their drive to promote Kinect, are presumably limiting the function to Kinect only (I kinda still hope this isn't the case). Which, if true, is a shame as it would be awesome if a broader base of 360 players could also use the function, but understandable as Microsoft want to sell more Kinects. In short, it seems Microsoft are stinging their own Kinect-free customers here, who already all have mics, and I think that's a bit shitty. It's just voice control, after all. It's not that big or that clever. If SingStar can do it, I can't see any reason why any game shouldn't be able to employ it.

That aside, the function itself appears to be one of the least useful I could imagine for ME (which is one of my favourite games, by the way). For example: pressing a button is quicker and easier than saying something like, 'Make the sexxors with me.' Talking is slower and unintuitive (especially when those onscreen don't repeat what you've just uttered). I'm pretty sure I'll never use it (just like I don't use voice control in SingStar, even though it works really well).

Voice commands for combat are potentially more useful, but completely lack fine control, and could potentially be useless in practice (how could I command Miranda to Warp the 2nd heavy weapon guy on the right on the gantry at the other side of the battlefield? It's too complex a target). There are simply better games to integrate this sort of tech. Here it feels tagged on and gimmicky, only employed to allow Microsoft to add the BEST WITH KINECT banner.

My Kinect is highly unlikely to be used for this. Give me decent integration of Kinect's capabilities, please, not gimmicks.

... aim at them?

 

I have said it before, and will likely say it again, that even if it is only a small integration like this it is still increased incentive. And if in the end you see that there are dozens or even hundred of games that play better or even require Kinect that interest you then you are more likely to buy it... ofcourse when I say 'you' I am using it objectively. This is pretty much the philosophy Microsoft are following.

Which means you're not aiming at other people you might want to be killing with Shep. It's a big limiter, and very slow in terms of comparing it to the button pressing alternative. When using buttons, I can be shooting at one guy while I'm telling Miranda to warp the guy at the back. I can't do that with voice commands. Or, at least, I can't think of a way it can be done easily. As I mentioned before, perhaps I'll be surprised when the product is finalised, but I doubt it.

However, this is all quite beside the point, really. The thing that bugs me most about this isn't that it exists (more toys are rarely ever a bad thing), but that it seems to exist on Kinect only, which means all other 360 players can't use the functionality, which is a crying shame as it is simple voice recognition tech, and all that is needed for that is a mic. Lots of games have done it. It isn't that hard (in the greater scheme of things). In short: it seems Microsoft are stinging their own customers in an attempt to sell more Kinects, they're not just stinging customers on other platforms, and that sucks.



Rainbird said:
dahuman said:
Rainbird said:
dahuman said:
Rainbird said:
dahuman said:

I think it's dumb that they make it seem like it's only possible on kinect when they can do that on all platforms. Actually, it'd be a piece of cake for them to make it so you can enable voice commands with the 360 headset, PS3 mic inputs, and on PC. This is just really dumb.

I think the reason they're only doing it for Kinect is because it's so well supported. Microsoft have probably already built the software needed which should make it much easier to build. Kinect has also been optimized for taking commands, there's an array of microphones in there after all. So I'm guessing the reason it's happening so much on Kinect is because it's easy and also very stable. Players with different microphones could have completely different experiences for example.

This is not 10 years ago where this kind of tech was still not as reliable, accuracy issue can be solved by doing simple calibrations with a few spoken sentences these days. There is no optimization of any kind, it's just a software driven piece like any other.

And that software comes from Microsoft and works only with Kinect. Which is why things are the way they are.

That's Bioware's problem, because they don't need to use Kinect libaries to make voice commands work with everything else. I'm not taking shots at MS or Kinect if you haven't noticed yet.  The feature itself is of course cool for console players since console players don't have keyboards to macro things or keybind all sorts of commands to. I wouldn't use it even if they had it on PC since pressing a key or button is faster than voice commands.

I'm not saying you were taking shots at them, I'm just saying that apparently, BioWare isn't interested in putting a lot of ressources into making it work on other platforms where it isn't as easy. I'm just telling you why things are the way they are at the moment.

uh, and I'm saying that it's not as hard as you are thinking, it's not like there are not open source libaries out there that they can look at, the coding gap is much closer these days, and remember that the game has been delayed by many months too, they could easily put some more Kinect features in and add voice support for all versions and add patches later, it's 2011.



Rainbird said:
Hapimeses said:
Rainbird said:

2) No one has been complaining spotty voice recognition from the languages Microsoft support at the moment. We'll see if that changes when they launch the next batch of supported languages.

3) Less easy or effective? It looks way faster than going through a bunch of menus for giving your squad commands, not to mention hellishly more immersive. The storytelling aspect might not be easier or faster, but it has potential to be much more immersive I think. And it's not like you need good response time for that...

I'm going to call you out on these. I think your enthusiam for the tech is perhaps blinding you to some obvious flaws.

2) The Kinect often fails to get one of my voice commands correct. It is not 100% accurate at all. Certainly nowhere near as accurate as pressing A.

3) It will be very much slower. Let me explain why it is in two important ways:

Assume the order I want to give is for Tali to arm a Shotgun. This is as simple an order as I can imagine. Choices for this are:

i) Say 'Tali: Shotgun'.

ii) Press LB and select the Shotgun.

The first option, i), not only takes longer in practice, as it takes more time to utter the words clearly than it does to select the shotgun (which takes a fraction of a second once practiced), but it also takes far, far longer in-game. During play, option i) takes a second or two, during which time you wil be shot, or the state of the battlefield may even have changed; option ii), by comparison, is instantaneous, as the game pauses while the order is sent.

In short, voice commands are always slower. More immersive, probably, but much slower, and also considerably less accurate. And I don't just mean in terms of recognising quickly uttered phrases (which it will not always do as I mentioned in 2 above, especially as voices will frequently be excited), but I mean for accurately targetting bad guys as I mentioned in my previous post.

That all said, perhaps it will work in a way I simply don't expect. However, having played many games with voice recognition, both good and bad, I kinda doubt it.

2) Voice commands aren't supported where I live, so I go by what seems to be happening on the forums, and I haven't seen a single person complain. If that's not the way it is, then fair enough, I haven't exactly done any deep investigation here.

3) I guess it depends on play style. I've never been using my squad in detail enough to change a characters weapon, in combat more than maybe five times throughout any of the games. I've never gotten to the point where I know the placements of the different abilities in the menus by heart either, so for me, voice commands seem like more fun in that they add immersion (hopefully), while giving me a less cluttered experience.

If you're playing on a higher difficulty then I agree it's probably not good enough, but for me, that's not going to be an issue.

2) Really? That also sucks. In short: it doesn't always work very well. Sometimes I have to command the device a couple of times or more to get it to do what I want, especially if there are people talking at the same time. It usually works, but not reliably. It's unreliable enough that I pretty much never use the function in practice. As I mentioned before, buttons are quicker and more accurate. After the 'oooooh, new toy' phase passes, it's just a slower, less-accurate way of accessing your console's functions (which is also true for navigating using Kinect's motion sensing; in fact, this is significantly slower, and significantly less accurate).

3) I, by comparison, always use my squad, and always use my powers, so soon they were second nature to me. So, perhaps you're correct, for casual gamers it will be more useful. Run and gunners and the like. I've also completed both games on Insanity with both Paragon and Renegade playthroughs, so I'm very used to the LB/RB dials (or L1/L2 dials, or space bar on PC -- I've played them all).

However, as I said in my previous post, I'm not really bothered by the integration for all I think it won't work well, I'm bothered by how it's been limited to Kinect only, which is a slap in the face to many loyal ME fans, all of whom have mics on 360, mics that could do the job just as well.



To me immersion is better when you can actually do in games what you would do in real life. If you had a squad to command I believe you would tell them to switch weapons or point them what to do. In games people just want everything to perform fast without the slightest body involvement or being afraid to be outclassed by the cpu.

I welcome the voice command for ME3 and hope they'll allow me to use biotics with Kinect. How more immersive is using a controller to talk than actually talking? I think people will feel closer to characters if they can talk to them instead of just pressing buttons. The more I think about it, the more I want to be able to interact physically with games... pressing buttons is becoming last gen.



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dahuman said:

uh, and I'm saying that it's not as hard as you are thinking, it's not like there are not open source libaries out there that they can look at, the coding gap is much closer these days, and remember that the game has been delayed by many months too, they could easily put some more Kinect features in and add voice support for all versions and add patches later, it's 2011.

Look, I don't know what's going on inside BioWare. I'm just making the observation, that apparently they don't want to spend time and ressources on this feature outside of Kinect. I'm not looking at how easy or hard it is, I'm just observing that they don't want to put the extra effort it requires into the other versions.



Rainbird said:
dahuman said:

uh, and I'm saying that it's not as hard as you are thinking, it's not like there are not open source libaries out there that they can look at, the coding gap is much closer these days, and remember that the game has been delayed by many months too, they could easily put some more Kinect features in and add voice support for all versions and add patches later, it's 2011.

Look, I don't know what's going on inside BioWare. I'm just making the observation, that apparently they don't want to spend time and ressources on this feature outside of Kinect. I'm not looking at how easy or hard it is, I'm just observing that they don't want to put the extra effort it requires into the other versions.


Well, I'm sure the game will be fine either way, I just hope it's not another Dragon Age II or I'll have to puke all over it.



Hapimeses said:
Rainbird said:

2) Voice commands aren't supported where I live, so I go by what seems to be happening on the forums, and I haven't seen a single person complain. If that's not the way it is, then fair enough, I haven't exactly done any deep investigation here.

3) I guess it depends on play style. I've never been using my squad in detail enough to change a characters weapon, in combat more than maybe five times throughout any of the games. I've never gotten to the point where I know the placements of the different abilities in the menus by heart either, so for me, voice commands seem like more fun in that they add immersion (hopefully), while giving me a less cluttered experience.

If you're playing on a higher difficulty then I agree it's probably not good enough, but for me, that's not going to be an issue.

2) Really? That also sucks. In short: it doesn't always work very well. Sometimes I have to command the device a couple of times or more to get it to do what I want, especially if there are people talking at the same time. It usually works, but not reliably. It's unreliable enough that I pretty much never use the function in practice. As I mentioned before, buttons are quicker and more accurate. After the 'oooooh, new toy' phase passes, it's just a slower, less-accurate way of accessing your console's functions (which is also true for navigating using Kinect's motion sensing; in fact, this is significantly slower, and significantly less accurate).

3) I, by comparison, always use my squad, and always use my powers, so soon they were second nature to me. So, perhaps you're correct, for casual gamers it will be more useful. Run and gunners and the like. I've also completed both games on Insanity with both Paragon and Renegade playthroughs, so I'm very used to the LB/RB dials (or L1/L2 dials, or space bar on PC -- I've played them all).

However, as I said in my previous post, I'm not really bothered by the integration for all I think it won't work well, I'm bothered by how it's been limited to Kinect only, which is a slap in the face to many loyal ME fans, all of whom have mics on 360, mics that could do the job just as well.

Hopefully the voice recognition can be improved for Kinect in time then. Rumors were that Microsoft were bringing big updates to Kinect with the new update in the fall, so maybe it will improve things. I just hope they choose to support danish with the update too. I don't know why they don't just let us speak english though. :/



Rainbird said:
dahuman said:

uh, and I'm saying that it's not as hard as you are thinking, it's not like there are not open source libaries out there that they can look at, the coding gap is much closer these days, and remember that the game has been delayed by many months too, they could easily put some more Kinect features in and add voice support for all versions and add patches later, it's 2011.

Look, I don't know what's going on inside BioWare. I'm just making the observation, that apparently they don't want to spend time and ressources on this feature outside of Kinect. I'm not looking at how easy or hard it is, I'm just observing that they don't want to put the extra effort it requires into the other versions.

Assuming it is extra effort, and not just MS 'asking them nicely' to only use the feature on Kinect, and not every other mic, which, as several have said, would likely be almost no harder. At the very least, if using MS software, MS could allow the game to use any mics on their platform, but that isn't happening either. Seems very fishy to me. Sure, I may not see much use for the feature, but as this thread shows, others do, and most won't be able to use voice commands as they don't have a Kinect. Looks like a kick in the balls to normal 360 owners who love ME to me.



Rainbird said:
Hapimeses said:
Rainbird said:

2) Voice commands aren't supported where I live, so I go by what seems to be happening on the forums, and I haven't seen a single person complain. If that's not the way it is, then fair enough, I haven't exactly done any deep investigation here.

3) I guess it depends on play style. I've never been using my squad in detail enough to change a characters weapon, in combat more than maybe five times throughout any of the games. I've never gotten to the point where I know the placements of the different abilities in the menus by heart either, so for me, voice commands seem like more fun in that they add immersion (hopefully), while giving me a less cluttered experience.

If you're playing on a higher difficulty then I agree it's probably not good enough, but for me, that's not going to be an issue.

2) Really? That also sucks. In short: it doesn't always work very well. Sometimes I have to command the device a couple of times or more to get it to do what I want, especially if there are people talking at the same time. It usually works, but not reliably. It's unreliable enough that I pretty much never use the function in practice. As I mentioned before, buttons are quicker and more accurate. After the 'oooooh, new toy' phase passes, it's just a slower, less-accurate way of accessing your console's functions (which is also true for navigating using Kinect's motion sensing; in fact, this is significantly slower, and significantly less accurate).

3) I, by comparison, always use my squad, and always use my powers, so soon they were second nature to me. So, perhaps you're correct, for casual gamers it will be more useful. Run and gunners and the like. I've also completed both games on Insanity with both Paragon and Renegade playthroughs, so I'm very used to the LB/RB dials (or L1/L2 dials, or space bar on PC -- I've played them all).

However, as I said in my previous post, I'm not really bothered by the integration for all I think it won't work well, I'm bothered by how it's been limited to Kinect only, which is a slap in the face to many loyal ME fans, all of whom have mics on 360, mics that could do the job just as well.

Hopefully the voice recognition can be improved for Kinect in time then. Rumors were that Microsoft were bringing big updates to Kinect with the new update in the fall, so maybe it will improve things. I just hope they choose to support danish with the update too. I don't know why they don't just let us speak english though. :/

Really? You can't even use English? Poor show. And, yes, I'd hope the recognition is improved as well, but I'm not sure that 100% recognition will ever be even close to being achieved this generation. Too many variables are involved. I'll admit that the function was less perfect than I'd hoped, and less accurate than some other voice recognition software I'd used, but, as you say, it is bound to be improved a bit.