By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sony - Ha! Anonymous didnt do it. It was Phantom.

flyingforce said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
flyingforce said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:

flyingforce said:

[...]

lol at calling geohotz honest

 

Isn't he? He was sued only in a civil lawsuit and never condemned. He always spoke against piracy. He just wants users to keep the freedom to modify what they buy for legit purposes.

thats bull, he is one of those losers that idolize rappers he did it for the attention and to be "bad ass" he knew his hack would be used for piracy and cheats 99 out of 100 times and he didn't care not to mention him distributing Sony's code illegally modified to be ripe for cheats and piracy 


Absolutely not bull. Until proven guilty of what you accuse him of, he's innocent. And actually nobody, not even Sony, ever pressed against him charges of piracy or complicity with pirates.

He addmitted guilt when he settled in court, so yes he is guilty and the only reason they didn't press charges is because he didn't directly give it to them, he gave it to everyone which was agaisnt another law, so yes he is guilty and yes it's his fault piracy and online cheating are here and everyone else involved in hacking the ps3, hell their at fault for removal of linux it wasn't taken out until they hacked it, you can blame sony all you want but bottom line no priracy and no cheating online is better then cheating and piracy and being able to play crappy homebrew games no1 even knows how to find 

Settling, nolo contendere and pleading guilty are three different things.

He settled, that is he reached an agreement with the counterpart. In this agreement he didn't admit any guilt of what you accuse him of. Actually Sony didn't even accuse him of the things you accuse him of, but I just read again your imaginative explanation of why in your opinion they didn't, and I suddenly and too late understood that you disconnected from reality. So sorry, I won't argue anymore with you, for the well known proverbial reasons.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


Around the Network
Alby_da_Wolf said:
o_O.Q said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
o_O.Q said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
flyingforce said:
[...]

lol at calling geohotz honest

Isn't he? He was sued only in a civil lawsuit and never condemned. He always spoke against piracy. He just wants users to keep the freedom to modify what they buy for legit purposes.

yes true he always spoke out publicly against piracy... yet his actions allowed for it and compromised online gaming... its not your intentions thats important its the results of your actions...

Sony keeps the right to kick modded consoles out of its network, I don't deny its right, neither does GeoHot, AFAIK. BTW on PC gaming networks, you can access them with whatever PC you like and you can have any SW you like on your PC (as long as you use a supported OS, if the network isn't platform independent, or a supported browser if the net is based on them), your only obligations are to use unmodded games (or authorized mods of legit, not pirated copies of the games) and unmodded proprietary client for the network, if one is needed. Modding doesn't necessarily mean crime, piracy, malicious hacking or cheating and in the cases users use their freedom for not legit purposes, networks owners have every right to deny them access. Not to mention that it's like with weapons: forbidding honest people from owning them doesn't stop criminals.

"Sony keeps the right to kick modded consoles out of its network"

1. They should also have the right to attack any threats to their software or to the games that hard working people toil to create

"Modding doesn't necessarily mean crime, piracy, malicious hacking or cheating"

2. agreed but the bottomline is that it happened in this case... and sony attacked the source first by removing linux then geohot... to say that they should attack the pirates only is pointless if the source is still there to provide the exploits so that more pirates are formed

"forbidding honest people from owning them doesn't stop criminals"

3. i disagree if theres a situation where the weapons can be successfully prevented from being obtained by either ( stop the source ) then both will do without... which was sony's plan i would have to assume

1. Attacking an actual threat is a thing, attacking what COULD be a threat, but could not be too, indiscriminately, goes beyond their rights ad violates the rights of those not threatening it. You cannot report to the Police whoever owns a weapon, accusing all them of planning to kill you, whoever is innocent of your accusations, most probably the vast majority of them, would sue you and you'd be condemned to compensate them, or even closed in an asylum, should your form of paranoia be considered dangerous.

2.  Virtual machines are used in contexts more critical than a console, Sony could have found a viable way to keep Linux and make its honest users happy without offering pirates an easy backdoor. Not rewriting the vulnerable part of the hypervisor, suing those that reintroduced the lost functions and just hoping pirates wouldn't break through the weak point anyway, even without GeoHot, was just wishful thinking and by no means an effective defensive strategy.

3. Criminals could obtain weapons anyway. In my country, like in many others in the world, people cannot legally own automatic weapons, at most semi-automatic, but criminals always had them anyway. Stopping the source is utopian, criminals could even build them  by themselves. And in the case of HW and SW, as they aren't deadly weapons, limiting honest users rights would not only be ineffective to stop pirates, just like it isn't in the weapons case, but it would be plain unjust. Imagine if Sony's presumed strategy were considered legally acceptable, companies (but also privates) could have practically everything made forbidden, as almost everything can be used for crime, if a criminal wants to. You could beat to death somebody using a cured ham or a stockfish, for example, should we forbid them? A brick or a stick can be deadly weapons. And OMG! We got knives in our kitchens! And how many people are killed by cars every year? So no, companies must fight criminal use of things against them, not things themselves or people using them for harmless and honest purposes. And as I wrote in previous points, bettering security is the only effective strategy, criminals and pirates don't give a damn about further prohibitions, as what they do is already forbidden now.


1. in the suing of geohot they were suing the person responsible for posting the keys to the ps3 online, the person whos actions caused the piracy and cheating online so yes they were attacking a threat

2. "Sony could have found a viable way to keep Linux and make its honest users happy" how, since linux itself was what was exploited ( do you really think its that simple to say they should have found another way? )? originally linux was what allowed the hackers to break in so it was removed

3. with regards to this lets say for example that piracy or online cheating is water coming through a leak and the leak can be the exploit in question... taking a sponge and removing some of the water will work to a certain extent but unless the source is patched it is pointless... as i said it makes absolutely no sense to go after the pirates on an individual basis if the exploit is still there continuously allowing others to join in the activity



Kasz216 said:
flyingforce said:
Kasz216 said:
 


Er, you don't do know much about the legal system do you.  Innocent people settle all the time... largely because large ass coprorations can drag on court cases for years until people go bankrupt.

Which they do... all the time.

See Bleem! which won, but in winning lost all their money.


Which would you rather do if you were Geohotz?  Keep fighting and hope enough people keep donating to you.... and if not you go bankrupt.  Or settle, admit no wrong doing and suffer basically no penalty.

The odd part is that SONY settled... and settled on such poor terms.

They were the ones who thought they couldn't win.

If I was him I wouldn't distribute a hack and cause piracy and online cheating in the first place not to mention copywrite infringement and he was guilty, it's their code (that he altered) and distributed, how can you argue that, what part of that are you arguing?

Well to start with... he didn't distribute their code.  He distibuted a patch that overwrote their code.

Second of all his hack did not allow piracy and online cheating.... and if he did.  That is not illegal. 

See Galoob V Nintendo.

"The Court denied Nintendo's motion for a preliminary injunction, holding that Game Genie did not create a derivative work and also suggesting that even if it did, it might well be fair use. As the district court wrote, "Having paid Nintendo a fair return, the consumer may experiment with the product and create new variations of play, for personal enjoyment, without creating a derivative work."

Essentially, your entire basic premise of the idea is wrong.


actually from what i remember he posted the medlr keys online, keys needed to unlock the ps3...

 



NJ5 said:
flyingforce said:
NJ5 said:
Kasz216 said:

Except... he didn't really.  With that logic you may as well blame Sony for building the PS3 in the first place.  I don't get why people like you... when proven wrong, and you actually get knowledge in the case... still persist in keeping the same opinion.


It's just hard for some people to grasp that hacking/modding is different from pirating, and that the motivations behind one can be widely different from the other.

I've been involved in a small project to hack/mod a device, and there was certainly no way of pirating anything there. It was all for the sake of understanding it and seeing how far we could push it without the limitations built into it.

With geohotz hack there was and he distributed it, I'm guessing you didn't distribute it which is fine if you don't distribute it people don't abuse it, but he did


If you're doing something for educational/research/fun purposes, there is no problem at all with distributing it. Of course you can't distribute any copyrighted content, but instructions/materials for modding a console, why not?

Of course Sony would like you to believe otherwise. They want you to believe they have the right to restrict people's exchange of ideas that relate to their products, customer rights be damned...

Because it causes priracy and cheating, and the vast majority of the people who download it download it for those 2 reasons, there are a few that have other reasons, but if the vast majority bought guns to murder someone with the country probably wouldn't sell guns and do everything in their power to keep them out of the country 



o_O.Q said:
2. "Sony could have found a viable way to keep Linux and make its honest users happy" how, since linux itself was what was exploited ( do you really think its that simple to say they should have found another way? )? originally linux was what allowed the hackers to break in so it was removed

Actually they could have, it just really wasn't worth it, it would require secruity updates like they do with psn, problem is less then 1% of the console base even used other OS and of those most of them were hackers, so it just wasn't worth the money or the manpower to keep a couple thousand people happy, the money would have been better spent on HOME from a buisness standpoint 



Around the Network
flyingforce said:

Because it causes priracy and cheating, and the vast majority of the people who download it download it for those 2 reasons, there are a few that have other reasons, but if the vast majority bought guns to murder someone with the country probably wouldn't sell guns and do everything in their power to keep them out of the country 


Cheating is not illegal. Piracy is, but the method to pirate a game is not illegal.

I bet that a majority of blank CDs / DVDs / Blu-rays are used to pirate stuff. Did they get outlawed yet?



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

Kasz216 said:
o_O.Q said:
Kasz216 said:
o_O.Q said:
Kasz216 said:
 

It is... among people who know shit about technology anyway.  If it wasn't common knowledge for Sony... Sony is unbelievably incompetant.

That would be like a Bank claiming ignorance of how bank robbers work.

so you're telling me before the network went down and before anon declared their attack you knew the network would be brought down specifically? that is to say you knew the exact measures they would take to attack sony? and there was no doubt in your mind that maybe they could have attacked via a different route like uploading new forms of firmware or finding some other way to mess with the hardware or software?... bear in mind i'm not saying an attack wasn't expected im saying that the exact type of attack couldn't possibly have been known before hand

I knew Sony would get DDOSed and I knew hackers would try to hack them.

Those are the very basic methods that have basically always been used by angry hackers.

I didn't think the DDOS would bring down PSN though, I thought it would just slow it.  Didn't think sony would have that many flaws in PSN either... but they did.

thats good therefore we agree that the activities which brought psn down ( not the ddos attacks ) couldn't have been anticipated... that was my point all along btw

No... like I said, I thought the activities could be anticipated.  What couldn't be anticipated is Sony's incopetant security.  Sony should know there own itnerent security.

so therefore you predicted that during the ddos attacks that hackers would steal the account info from the servers?... wow i must say im quite disappointed why didn't you inform the authorities before hand?

btw with regards to sony i completely agree their security should have been much better... with better security they could have at least delayed the hacks for a few hours or days or so and that would have made a monumental difference



NJ5 said:
flyingforce said:
NJ5 said:
Kasz216 said:

Except... he didn't really.  With that logic you may as well blame Sony for building the PS3 in the first place.  I don't get why people like you... when proven wrong, and you actually get knowledge in the case... still persist in keeping the same opinion.


It's just hard for some people to grasp that hacking/modding is different from pirating, and that the motivations behind one can be widely different from the other.

I've been involved in a small project to hack/mod a device, and there was certainly no way of pirating anything there. It was all for the sake of understanding it and seeing how far we could push it without the limitations built into it.

With geohotz hack there was and he distributed it, I'm guessing you didn't distribute it which is fine if you don't distribute it people don't abuse it, but he did


If you're doing something for educational/research/fun purposes, there is no problem at all with distributing it. Of course you can't distribute any copyrighted content, but instructions/materials for modding a console, why not?

Of course Sony would like you to believe otherwise. They want you to believe they have the right to restrict people's exchange of ideas that relate to their products, customer rights be damned...

lol sony didn't do what they did to protect themselves, their business partners, the devs and by extension their customers... they did it to restrict your ideas? lol 



o_O.Q said:
[...]


1. in the suing of geohot they were suing the person responsible for posting the keys to the ps3 online, the person whos actions caused the piracy and cheating online so yes they were attacking a threat

2. "Sony could have found a viable way to keep Linux and make its honest users happy" how, since linux itself was what was exploited ( do you really think its that simple to say they should have found another way? )? originally linux was what allowed the hackers to break in so it was removed

3. with regards to this lets say for example that piracy or online cheating is water coming through a leak and the leak can be the exploit in question... taking a sponge and removing some of the water will work to a certain extent but unless the source is patched it is pointless... as i said it makes absolutely no sense to go after the pirates on an individual basis if the exploit is still there continuously allowing others to join in the activity

1. That is what they state, but in a lot of other cases, like phones jailbreaking, courts ruled there were legit uses for the hacks, and we know there are also for GeoHot's one.

2. Pirates used Linux to break through because there was a vulnerability in the way Sony implemented OtherOS, the right thing to do was removing that vulnerability, as they would have been forced to do so if the vulnerability were in a subsystem essential for gaming or movie playing, for example. Moreover, once Sony produced millions vulnerable PS3s, removing Linux from successively produced ones was totally pointless, pirates just need old unpatched consoles to crack the security and also to study without problems every other subsystem, looking for other vulnerabilities in parts Sony just can't remove. Sony closed the stable door after the horse has bolted.

3. Responsibility is individual, not collective so Sony really hasn't choice about it, you can't interrupt water supply to everybody because in some homes there are leaks. But Sony hasn't just the instrument of suing pirates, it can kick them out of its networks without the need of suing, for breach of the rules that everybody wanting to access them must explicitly accept (much stronger and enforceable obligation than EULAs).



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


Alby_da_Wolf said:
o_O.Q said:
[...]


1. in the suing of geohot they were suing the person responsible for posting the keys to the ps3 online, the person whos actions caused the piracy and cheating online so yes they were attacking a threat

2. "Sony could have found a viable way to keep Linux and make its honest users happy" how, since linux itself was what was exploited ( do you really think its that simple to say they should have found another way? )? originally linux was what allowed the hackers to break in so it was removed

3. with regards to this lets say for example that piracy or online cheating is water coming through a leak and the leak can be the exploit in question... taking a sponge and removing some of the water will work to a certain extent but unless the source is patched it is pointless... as i said it makes absolutely no sense to go after the pirates on an individual basis if the exploit is still there continuously allowing others to join in the activity

1. That is what they state, but in a lot of other cases, like phones jailbreaking, courts ruled there were legit uses for the hacks, and we know there are also for GeoHot's one.

2. Pirates used Linux to break through because there was a vulnerability in the way Sony implemented OtherOS, the right thing to do was removing that vulnerability, as they would have been forced to do so if the vulnerability were in a subsystem essential for gaming or movie playing, for example. Moreover, once Sony produced millions vulnerable PS3s, removing Linux from successively produced ones was totally pointless, pirates just need old unpatched consoles to crack the security and also to study without problems every other subsystem, looking for other vulnerabilities in parts Sony just can't remove. Sony closed the stable door after the horse has bolted.

3. Responsibility is individual, not collective so Sony really hasn't choice about it, you can't interrupt water supply to everybody because in some homes there are leaks. But Sony hasn't just the instrument of suing pirates, it can kick them out of its networks without the need of suing, for breach of the rules that everybody wanting to access them must explicitly accept (much stronger and enforceable obligation than EULAs).


1. what does the court have to do with it the point is that they were attacking a threat to their security 

2. maybe the best or only way to remove the vulnerability was the complete removal of other os i'm no hacker so i'm not sure all i can say is that i prefer its removal to going online to play my games and having morons ruin it

3. "it can kick them out of its networks without the need of suing" thats not the point here geohot and the people who were providing the leaks or exploits weren't offensive because they messed with the online system directly but because of the exploits they provided which when altered allowed the cheaters and pirates to get online