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Forums - General - Lots of bashing for the belief of God....

vlad321 on 02 May 2011
DélioPT said:

You respect religions or religious people as long as they are smart?
"People who refuse to believe in the most reasonable explanations are slightly less deserving of both than people who are smart enough to reason through some things"

You don`t have my view of the world and i don`t care how far out is yours or how far out it can be. I respect YOU. and that`s what you didn`t do. "they receive plenty of respect and tolerance from me. So yes, I am very much tolerant and respectful towards people who believe in god" and then you go insulting Mary?

In the end all that you show is that, through your judgment of their explanations being they way you like it or not, you respect them. You should respect them first and foremost. You don`t like what you are hearing? No one ever likes what they hear one time or another. Should we go one calling people names and insulting what they believe, just becasue of that?

Mary is different than god. You do realize that there may be a god the way you think there is a god, but the stories written about him, by humans, may just be bullshit? There is a HUGE difference between claiming "there is a god who is like the judaic god" and claiming "a woman had a baby without having sex." Are you also claiming that everyone believes every part of the new/old testaments?  I hope you don't say yes, because then you dig yourself in a hole. GIven this, why should you believe some parts, and not others?

Furthermore, let me explain. I don't know what happens after someone dies, so there may be hell and there may be heaven. There may be an armageddon, there may not be. There are many things which could be true or false. However, a virgin birth is absolutely known to be untrue, and beliving in it is downright idiotic. Same with the 10 commandments, and a bunch of other things that are obviously downright bullshit. So there you go, an explanation how you can have someone believe in the christian god, and being able to distinguish between the bullshit and not.

I guess I should define what I mean by idiotic. Beliving in something when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. There is no overwhelming evidence against an afterlife or the acutal god for example. However there is beyond overwhelming evidence against a virgin birth (unless humans become asexual). So believing what I believe has nothing to do with who I respect and tolerate.

You also seem to avoid my question about the pregnant girlfriend. Will you believe her that god is the father of the child in her if she says so?



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

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DélioPT on 02 May 2011

Mary is different than God, i know that.
You don`t understand how important she is to Christians? She`s not just another woman. If you know that part of the Bible you`ll know why... it also shows how she conceived without intercourse.
If you don`t believe one part, surely you won`t believe the other, but that`s no reason to insult her.

God only had one son and that won`t change. So know i won`t believe. It`s based on my religious views, just that.

Being tolerant and respectful should be something that affects everyone not just the people that say things you like or agree with. That´s not being tolerant and respectful. These two concepts exist to "embrace" others in their views.





vlad321 on 02 May 2011
DélioPT said:

Mary is different than God, i know that.
You don`t understand how important she is to Christians? She`s not just another woman. If you know that part of the Bible you`ll know why... it also shows how she conceived without intercourse.
If you don`t believe one part, surely you won`t believe the other, but that`s no reason to insult her.

God only had one son and that won`t change. So know i won`t believe. It`s based on my religious views, just that.

Being tolerant and respectful should be something that affects everyone not just the people that say things you like or agree with. That´s not being tolerant and respectful. These two concepts exist to "embrace" others in their views.


Again, it's not about what I agree and diasgree with. It's about the amount of overwhelming evidence present for a given situation, or against it. I don't decide the amount of evidence that exists, god does, or whatever it is that existance depends on.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

Final-Fan on 02 May 2011
DélioPT said:
1. Because the truth is that either you accept or not.
--I said people would go to hell because of ignorance? I never said that. What more proff do you want than what`s written in the Bible, all the apparitions and miracles?
--I said that as there is only two ways: good/wrong; life/death, etc.
--3rd option? People go to hell because they went against Him, so it`s a punishment and that`s as good reason as the reward for being good going to heaven.
--Not following a rule in society gets you the same consequence. It`s not just not doing it, it`s deliberately opposing to it.
2. You just don`t want to accept that you are fully responsible for what you do. Only you. As i said before and you ignore. God gives us freedom and everything that goes with it. Every time you decide something it`s your doing.
--When the day comes and you didn`t control your actions then no, you won`t be responsible for them, but when you can do.
--I kill, therefore It´s God`s fault for letting me have freedom. Now that`s being sincere to yourself.
3. You asked me if people sin. I just said yes, in a different way.
--Are you mad or something?
--But is this the point: no matter how much i live life i ended up sinning, therefore it`s God`s fault that i sin?
--Right, let`s ignore once again that i made the decisions.
--You know that there`s a difference between necessary and possible? I had the chance to make good when i did bad, you know?
--All these posts amount to only one thing: have we free will? If you say yes then all that you do is your doing and your consequences to be acountable for. If you are not, don`t blame the next guy that hurts in any way as he is not free to do anything different.

1. 
What about someone who never was well exposed to all the stuff in the New Testament, what would happen when they died?  They don't believe in Jesus or even God, but they never had the opportunity to do so either.  Do they go to hell?  I thought you would say they did, thus they go to hell for their ignorance. 

What more proof do I want?  What about something that is verifiably true, not just stories that could for all we can PROVE just as easily be highly exaggerated fables or even completely made up fairy tales like vlad says.  I doubt that most of the texts of the major religions had anything to do with deliberate deception, but that doesn't make them true either. 

In short, the Bible doesn't convince me.  If that's all God made available to convince people in the 21st century -- or for that matter ever since Jesus died -- IMO he did a bad job.  I guess it's my bad luck I won't be given GOOD evidence like Doubting Thomas was. 

If "I'm just not convinced yet" is considered an EVIL REJECTION OF GOD like you say, and it means I deserve to burn in hell FOREVER with the child rapists, then I think it's a pretty shitty system God set up. 

2. 
You misunderstand me.  I thought I was clear with this but let me say it explicitly here:  EVERYTHING PEOPLE DO, GOOD AND BAD, IS THEIR OWN RESPONSIBILITY.  Guy A kills Guy B and it's Guy A's fault.  But if Guy C told Guy A that he would murder his entire family if he didn't kill Guy B, then it's Guy C's fault too.  And if God set up the universe KNOWING that all that would happen, it's God's fault too. 

I AM NOT SAYING that people are not responsible for their own actions if God can see the future and made them knowing the choices they would freely make.  I'm just saying that God is ALSO responsible. 

"I kill, therefore It´s God`s fault for letting me have freedom. Now that`s being sincere to yourself."  IMO, at this point, either you're trying to bait me, or you're stupid, or you're blinding yourself to my point because you can't accept it. 

3. 
No, I didn't just ask you if people sin.  Go back, read the earlier posts, and either give me a coherent answer or admit you can't. 



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Final-Fan on 02 May 2011
DélioPT said:

Being tolerant and respectful should be something that affects everyone not just the people that say things you like or agree with. That´s not being tolerant and respectful. These two concepts exist to "embrace" others in their views.

vlad may be disrespectful, but you are very wrong if you think that people have to automatically back off from criticizing the claims your religion makes just because it's a religious belief. 

I'm reposting this again, please read it this time. 

 

The_vagabond7 said:

A culture of inquiry and reason, does not deem this sane in the free market of ideas anymore. It used to be it didn't matter how stupid what you said was, if you followed it with "and that's my religion" it automatically demanded respect. In the information age this is no longer the case. Ideas and beliefs are meant to be kicked around, abused, held under the microscope, and then tossed out or changed if found faulty. If you tell someone that their views on corporate regulation are absurd, then it's ok. If you tell someone that you disagree with their views of lateral gene transfer and it's effects on long term evolution, you go to the drawing board. If you tell somebody that you think that a jewish zombie saving us from a talking snake that made a woman eat an apple is dumb, then they will scream persecution and bigotry.Ideas are meant to be scrutinized, but certain ideas have had a priviledged status for so long that ones that hold them think they are beyond criticism.

It doesn't help that alot of religions have built in persecution complexes, so if somebody says "that's dumb" the recepient can immediately respond "my beliefs said you would say that, so I'm even more right! Ridicule me some more, my beliefs said you would do that too! I'm being martyred!!!!". Saying an idea or belief is dumb is not bigotry or persecution however. African Americans were hung and burned on crosses, weren't given legal rights and suffered numerous atrocities at the hands of bigots. Somebody saying "Let's debate the merits of bible's morality." or "Taking a literalist view of the bible is ignorant at best." is not persecution. But again and again this is seen as "militant" behavior, or gross "intolerance". If you think that is militant and intolerant, consider yourself lucky enough to live in a time where that can be said with a straight face.

Also, I take exception to the idea that people single out christians. This is confirmation bias at it's finest. Statistically there are far more christians on this site than muslims, of course there is going to be more discussion of the bible than the koran. I certainly don't think the koran is any more sane than the bible, but opprotunities to debate that point are few and far between. In fact looking at the topic "what religion are you" 47 checked christian, 13 checked muslim, 2 hindus, 2 buddhists, and 116 non-religious. Now just from a mathematical standpoint why do you think there are more topics about debating christianity than say...the Vedas?

Also saying "people are only willing to pick on a religion of love and peace" while claiming people only attack christians shows considerable bigotry and prejudice towards other religions. Just pointing that out.

 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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GameOver22 on 02 May 2011
Final-Fan said:
GameOver22 said:
Final-Fan said:


2. 
"he gets an EQUAL share of blame since he made it happen just as surely as the people with the blood on their hands."
First, knowing in advance what will happen means nothing. You have freedom to the what you will, so if you shoot anyone the blood is only in your hands, not God`s. That`s like blaming people for our mistakes.
Without freedom and free will, we would be no better than rocks, so to speak.

I'm not saying it's not their free choice, but it was also GOD's free choice to make the universe in such a way that people would do that.  It's like this:  people don't blame the parents of serial killers because they mostly did the best they could and the kid just turned out evil.  But suppose there were some parents who KNEW everything the kid would do in life before they even had sex to conceive it.  Suppose they KNEW that the way they raised him would end up with him torturing squirrels or whatever and then eating people's livers with fava beans and Chiantis.  And they went ahead and had sex and had the kid and raised him that way and not a different way that would lead to a different result. 

Whould THOSE parents not also bear some of of the guilt for his actions, since they were the NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of their own actions? 

And if you deny that all of the murders ever committed in the universe, etc., were known of in advance by God, you deny his omniscience and/or omnipotence IMO, but go ahead and use that to get out of this because as long as you consistently hold that viewpoint it's a legitimate counter to my argument here. 

To respond to that argument, God's omniscience and omnipotence do not need to be denied. Someone could just give the free-will defense. They could argue that the very act of giving people free-will counts as a good action because it allows for a greater level of moral goodness in the world. If people are not responsible for their own actions, its difficult to understand how we can hold them accountable for their actions or ascribe moral worth to their actions. To take a point from Leibniz, its about making the greatest possible world, and the greatest possible world requires free-will.

As far as the main point, I don't think many religious scholars would argue that God is not responsible for creating the world in the way that he did. It was a free choice he made, and he made a world that allows for human's to have free-will. Because he is the cause of the universe, there is a connection between how he designed the universe and the possible actions humans can make (good and bad). However, the existence of the evil resulting from human actions does not count against God's goodness given that free-will is good. Once again, the point is making the best possible world and not actually making the world with the least amount of suffering or evil. I think we can both imagine a world where no one suffers because God controls every action of the individual's inhabiting the world. I would argue that saying this is a good world in itself is inaccruate (the goodness would lie in God and his decisions-not the world itself).

I think you seriously underestimate the powers of an omniscient omnipotent being if you think that a world where animals rip other animals to shreds and eat them before they are done dying is a world as free from suffering as that being could possibly make. 


You are talking about a different problem than the one I addressed and the one you raised initially. There is a difference between talking about the suffering that results from human action and the suffering that occurs through the natural order of the world (diseases, weather disasters, suffering of animals, etc.). The free will defense addresses the first but not the second problem. A different argument would be put forward to address this question than the one I presented, so I do not see any reason to say I have underestimated God's powers given the parameters of our discussion.



Final-Fan on 03 May 2011
GameOver22 said:
Final-Fan said:

I think you seriously underestimate the powers of an omniscient omnipotent being if you think that a world where animals rip other animals to shreds and eat them before they are done dying is a world as free from suffering as that being could possibly make. 

You are talking about a different problem than the one I addressed and the one you raised initially. There is a difference between talking about the suffering that results from human action and the suffering that occurs through the natural order of the world (diseases, weather disasters, suffering of animals, etc.). The free will defense addresses the first but not the second problem. A different argument would be put forward to address this question than the one I presented, so I do not see any reason to say I have underestimated God's powers given the parameters of our discussion.

Although I was indeed speaking about free will, I didn't intend to limit God's responsibility to the suffering resulting from actions chosen by free-willed self-aware beings.  If you did so intend, then ... okay. 

In that case, the first objection that springs to mind is the claim that the evil resulting from free will shouldn't be held against God.  Of course it should!  But he would also get credit for the increased goodness resulting from the same gift of free will.  You say the good far outweighs the bad:  but that doesn't mean it negates the bad. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

DélioPT on 03 May 2011
vlad321 said:
DélioPT said:

Mary is different than God, i know that.
You don`t understand how important she is to Christians? She`s not just another woman. If you know that part of the Bible you`ll know why... it also shows how she conceived without intercourse.
If you don`t believe one part, surely you won`t believe the other, but that`s no reason to insult her.

God only had one son and that won`t change. So know i won`t believe. It`s based on my religious views, just that.

Being tolerant and respectful should be something that affects everyone not just the people that say things you like or agree with. That´s not being tolerant and respectful. These two concepts exist to "embrace" others in their views.


Again, it's not about what I agree and diasgree with. It's about the amount of overwhelming evidence present for a given situation, or against it. I don't decide the amount of evidence that exists, god does, or whatever it is that existance depends on.


Don´t you realize that a) you insulted someone and b)you insulted someone who is considered holy within a religion?
No arguments justify insulting someone.



DélioPT on 03 May 2011
Final-Fan said:
DélioPT said:

Being tolerant and respectful should be something that affects everyone not just the people that say things you like or agree with. That´s not being tolerant and respectful. These two concepts exist to "embrace" others in their views.

vlad may be disrespectful, but you are very wrong if you think that people have to automatically back off from criticizing the claims your religion makes just because it's a religious belief. 

I'm reposting this again, please read it this time. 

 

The_vagabond7 said:

A culture of inquiry and reason, does not deem this sane in the free market of ideas anymore. It used to be it didn't matter how stupid what you said was, if you followed it with "and that's my religion" it automatically demanded respect. In the information age this is no longer the case. Ideas and beliefs are meant to be kicked around, abused, held under the microscope, and then tossed out or changed if found faulty. If you tell someone that their views on corporate regulation are absurd, then it's ok. If you tell someone that you disagree with their views of lateral gene transfer and it's effects on long term evolution, you go to the drawing board. If you tell somebody that you think that a jewish zombie saving us from a talking snake that made a woman eat an apple is dumb, then they will scream persecution and bigotry.Ideas are meant to be scrutinized, but certain ideas have had a priviledged status for so long that ones that hold them think they are beyond criticism.

It doesn't help that alot of religions have built in persecution complexes, so if somebody says "that's dumb" the recepient can immediately respond "my beliefs said you would say that, so I'm even more right! Ridicule me some more, my beliefs said you would do that too! I'm being martyred!!!!". Saying an idea or belief is dumb is not bigotry or persecution however. African Americans were hung and burned on crosses, weren't given legal rights and suffered numerous atrocities at the hands of bigots. Somebody saying "Let's debate the merits of bible's morality." or "Taking a literalist view of the bible is ignorant at best." is not persecution. But again and again this is seen as "militant" behavior, or gross "intolerance". If you think that is militant and intolerant, consider yourself lucky enough to live in a time where that can be said with a straight face.

Also, I take exception to the idea that people single out christians. This is confirmation bias at it's finest. Statistically there are far more christians on this site than muslims, of course there is going to be more discussion of the bible than the koran. I certainly don't think the koran is any more sane than the bible, but opprotunities to debate that point are few and far between. In fact looking at the topic "what religion are you" 47 checked christian, 13 checked muslim, 2 hindus, 2 buddhists, and 116 non-religious. Now just from a mathematical standpoint why do you think there are more topics about debating christianity than say...the Vedas?

Also saying "people are only willing to pick on a religion of love and peace" while claiming people only attack christians shows considerable bigotry and prejudice towards other religions. Just pointing that out.

 


No one asked him to back off or stop criticizing, all i asked was for him to stop with the insults. There´s a difference.



DélioPT on 03 May 2011
Final-Fan said:
DélioPT said:
1. Because the truth is that either you accept or not.
--I said people would go to hell because of ignorance? I never said that. What more proff do you want than what`s written in the Bible, all the apparitions and miracles?
--I said that as there is only two ways: good/wrong; life/death, etc.
--3rd option? People go to hell because they went against Him, so it`s a punishment and that`s as good reason as the reward for being good going to heaven.
--Not following a rule in society gets you the same consequence. It`s not just not doing it, it`s deliberately opposing to it.
2. You just don`t want to accept that you are fully responsible for what you do. Only you. As i said before and you ignore. God gives us freedom and everything that goes with it. Every time you decide something it`s your doing.
--When the day comes and you didn`t control your actions then no, you won`t be responsible for them, but when you can do.
--I kill, therefore It´s God`s fault for letting me have freedom. Now that`s being sincere to yourself.
3. You asked me if people sin. I just said yes, in a different way.
--Are you mad or something?
--But is this the point: no matter how much i live life i ended up sinning, therefore it`s God`s fault that i sin?
--Right, let`s ignore once again that i made the decisions.
--You know that there`s a difference between necessary and possible? I had the chance to make good when i did bad, you know?
--All these posts amount to only one thing: have we free will? If you say yes then all that you do is your doing and your consequences to be acountable for. If you are not, don`t blame the next guy that hurts in any way as he is not free to do anything different.

1. 
What about someone who never was well exposed to all the stuff in the New Testament, what would happen when they died?  They don't believe in Jesus or even God, but they never had the opportunity to do so either.  Do they go to hell?  I thought you would say they did, thus they go to hell for their ignorance. 

What more proof do I want?  What about something that is verifiably true, not just stories that could for all we can PROVE just as easily be highly exaggerated fables or even completely made up fairy tales like vlad says.  I doubt that most of the texts of the major religions had anything to do with deliberate deception, but that doesn't make them true either. 

In short, the Bible doesn't convince me.  If that's all God made available to convince people in the 21st century -- or for that matter ever since Jesus died -- IMO he did a bad job.  I guess it's my bad luck I won't be given GOOD evidence like Doubting Thomas was. 

If "I'm just not convinced yet" is considered an EVIL REJECTION OF GOD like you say, and it means I deserve to burn in hell FOREVER with the child rapists, then I think it's a pretty shitty system God set up. 

2. 
You misunderstand me.  I thought I was clear with this but let me say it explicitly here:  EVERYTHING PEOPLE DO, GOOD AND BAD, IS THEIR OWN RESPONSIBILITY.  Guy A kills Guy B and it's Guy A's fault.  But if Guy C told Guy A that he would murder his entire family if he didn't kill Guy B, then it's Guy C's fault too.  And if God set up the universe KNOWING that all that would happen, it's God's fault too. 

I AM NOT SAYING that people are not responsible for their own actions if God can see the future and made them knowing the choices they would freely make.  I'm just saying that God is ALSO responsible. 

"I kill, therefore It´s God`s fault for letting me have freedom. Now that`s being sincere to yourself."  IMO, at this point, either you're trying to bait me, or you're stupid, or you're blinding yourself to my point because you can't accept it. 

3. 
No, I didn't just ask you if people sin.  Go back, read the earlier posts, and either give me a coherent answer or admit you can't. 

1. That`s a difficult thing to answer, because we have to consider why didn`t know of God and that we can only honestly answer by looking case by case. Would they goto hell because of "ignorance of God"? No.
The reason people go to hell is because people rejected Him whilst knowing them. There`s a difference there.

Saying your still not convinced is honestly not trying to see the truth. I understand that people can have doubts, but being with Jesus needs a leap of faith: trust! As Jesus said to Thomas: "fortunate are those we believe without seeing, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" This means that you got trust even if that jumps scares you in the first place. It`s a choice you make.

The proof that you want is to see Him in any shape or form. That`s not believing (as in having faith) that`s just seeing.
God didn`t just leave the Bible as proof. Throughout all the centuries there have bee miracles, apparitions that can serve as proof. Even in our daily lifes He`s there. If you open up your heart you will find Him.
In the same way, if you don`t open up your heart to peole you will never find friensdhips or love.

A sin is a sin, we just like to think that somethings can be forgiven and others not. God doesn´t care what you did as long as you repent and ask forgiveness you are forgiven. That`s how good He is.

2. No it was not a bait, it was merely an exampple that best reflects your vision.
I say: A kills B, it`s all A`s fault.
You say: A kills B, it`s my fault but it`s also God`s.
And this is where imo you are wrong.
God only set up the conditions of our existence and there`s nothing wrong in that. It`s the way we are that makes it wrong or right. You can`t admit that people are fully responsible for what they do if you also put the blame on someone else.
God even guide`s you to make you choose the best decision. but in the end it`s still WE who decide.

3. I did but i guess i still missed the point then. Can you please repeat what exactly did you want?