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Forums - General Discussion - Hungary's New Constitution and the Return of Fascism

SamuelRSmith said:
Kasz216 said:
SamuelRSmith said:
sapphi_snake said:
 

2. The EU should work on getting it's Constitution adopted, to keep things like this from happening.


The EU already has a constitution, and has had one since it's inception as the ECSC. All institutions have constitutions, from countries and NGOs to corporations and even soccer organizations.

What you're asking for is for the EU to be able to limit its members from having certain freedoms. The EU was set up as an economic union (a bad one, at that), it already goes far beyond its original jurisdiction, we need less EU, not more.

I wonder what will happen if Spain fails.


Spain failed a long time ago... 20% unemployment, dead construction industry, rising yields on bonds... it's basically a case of politicians putting their fingers in their ears and going "lalalala". If Spain were to "fail" tomorrow, there would be no different in its economic state from today, it's just that the politicians would have finally accepted it... which will be when the yields become intolerable (for the Spanish... the quicker Spain fails, the better, as they won't be piling on more and more debt).

What's going to happen? The same thing that always happens in the EU... when the EU fails, the politicians always argue that it's because there's not enough EU. And so the EU will try to extend its leverage over its member states, particularly the Eurozone. The problem is that, the only reason the Euro exists today is that Germany (and to a lesser extent, France) are anchoring it... but if Germany keeps bailing people it, it, too will be in greater financial ruin.

The left really have been showing their ineptitude since the 2008 collapse. Their answer to broken debts was to create more debt, now that this debt is starting to fail, they turn around and just create even more of the stuff. The debt crisis didn't end with the banks... it just moved onto the Governments, and in this process, the inflationary pressures caused by all this debt have decimated the value of money and moved the wealth from the workers back to Wall Street. It's funny how the left's approach to dealing with the debt ended up harming the people who they're supposedly supposed to be representing. Obviously not their intention... but, that just shows how bad they are with money.

Well yeah.  I meant officially fail.  I read some pretty interesting articles from a leftest person being angry at the EU.  Basically because of Germany requiring these nations to put in austerity measures to make sure they dont deficit spend and that Germany actually gets it money back.  That they would be "suffering" many years of little economic growth.

The interesting part was that said countries might just say "screw all" and jump out of the Euro and EU eventually.


I remember a statement i heard about Spain 4-5 months ago.   "Too big to fail, and too big to save."

I can't help but wonder if the EU is about to cause another giant economic downturn.



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SamuelRSmith said:
sapphi_snake said:


2. The EU should work on getting it's Constitution adopted, to keep things like this from happening.


The EU already has a constitution, and has had one since it's inception as the ECSC. All institutions have constitutions, from countries and NGOs to corporations and even soccer organizations.

What you're asking for is for the EU to be able to limit its members from having certain freedoms. The EU was set up as an economic union (a bad one, at that), it already goes far beyond its original jurisdiction, we need less EU, not more.

The purpose of the EU was to eventually become a federal republic, a sort of Switzerland on a bigger scale. That's what the people who founded it envisioned. That would be a great move to assure Europe's supremacy in the world, especially against the US. The EU's values would are certainly better than Hungary's values, so I don't think more Eu control would hurt at all.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

pizzahut451 said:
sapphi_snake said:
Slimebeast said:

But who is Germany to criticise? One of the most oppressionist countries in Europe.

Really? Are you sure you can make such a statement?


Any kind of national socialistic thing is forbbiden by law here. And that includes logos, emblems, greetings, messages, flags books or anything related to National socialism. But I wouldnt call Germany an opressing country, besides that stupid law they have.

I can understand why some would say that Germany limits freedom of speech, but it has more to do with the country's shame over it's past actions.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
SamuelRSmith said:
sapphi_snake said:


2. The EU should work on getting it's Constitution adopted, to keep things like this from happening.


The EU already has a constitution, and has had one since it's inception as the ECSC. All institutions have constitutions, from countries and NGOs to corporations and even soccer organizations.

What you're asking for is for the EU to be able to limit its members from having certain freedoms. The EU was set up as an economic union (a bad one, at that), it already goes far beyond its original jurisdiction, we need less EU, not more.

The purpose of the EU was to eventually become a federal republic, a sort of Switzerland on a bigger scale. That's what the people who founded it envisioned. That would be a great move to assure Europe's supremacy in the world, especially against the US. The EU's values would are certainly better than Hungary's values, so I don't think more Eu control would hurt at all.

Why do we need Europe to have supremacy? Why would we need to be "against" the USA? Has the USA's reign of terror since the end of the Cold War been so terrible that we need to give up our sovereignty to beat them? On a relative scale, the past 20 years of US supremacy have been the most peaceful in hundreds of years. Bipolarity led to the Cold War, and multipolarity led to a) Imperalism, and b) 2 World Wars, and, up until recently, they've also been the most prosperous.

And, I wouldn't trust the Europoliticians with my liberty:



Slimebeast said:
Rath said:
Slimebeast said:
Rath said:
 

Germany and the Germans were basically in penance for 50 years. The current generation of German leaders and the vast majority of German people weren't even alive for the Holocaust.

They simply aren't the same country they were back then. Countries really can change that much in just a couple of generations, look at Japan for example.

Well Japan still has the good taste to practically shut up and entirely stay out of all touchy international conflicts.

Germany in principle has that attitude too on international affairs, it still does, it's just that their green/left/commie movement is too strong to be entirely held back from criticizing Israel.


Germany as I said was (and actually still is) basically in penance. Its only the youngest generation in Germany that has any idea of national pride. On the other hand Japan has still to really acknowledge the atrocities they committed during the war, such as the Rape of Nanking.

Plus, Israel deserves criticism. It's illegally occupying land that is internationally recognized not to belong to them - East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

But Israel gets unproportunate amounts if criticism already, that's why Germany should stay out of it.

Germany's extermination of 6 mill Jews made the Israelis the paranoid and anxious people they are now. And there's a whole world policing Israel already. Common curtesy tells Germany to stay silent for another while.



Common courtesy tells anyone with a conscious to scream at Israel (and/or boycott their products) until they fix themselves. Germans should let the Palestinians live in Apartheid unchallenged just because of some stuff their ancestors did?



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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SamuelRSmith said:

Why do we need Europe to have supremacy? Why would we need to be "against" the USA? Has the USA's reign of terror since the end of the Cold War been so terrible that we need to give up our sovereignty to beat them? On a relative scale, the past 20 years of US supremacy have been the most peaceful in hundreds of years. Bipolarity led to the Cold War, and multipolarity led to a) Imperalism, and b) 2 World Wars, and, up until recently, they've also been the most prosperous.

Europe should have supremacy because we live in it, and being #1 is best. We should be against the US, because we're not Americans, the US follows it's own interests, and we should follow our own. An unified Europe could be more powerful than the US, and it would be a shame never to realise that.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
SamuelRSmith said:

Why do we need Europe to have supremacy? Why would we need to be "against" the USA? Has the USA's reign of terror since the end of the Cold War been so terrible that we need to give up our sovereignty to beat them? On a relative scale, the past 20 years of US supremacy have been the most peaceful in hundreds of years. Bipolarity led to the Cold War, and multipolarity led to a) Imperalism, and b) 2 World Wars, and, up until recently, they've also been the most prosperous.

Europe should have supremacy because we live in it, and being #1 is best. We should be against the US, because we're not Americans, the US follows it's own interests, and we should follow our own. An unified Europe could be more powerful than the US, and it would be a shame never to realise that.


Yes, we should follow our own interest... but it's painstakingly obvious that our interest lies in being pro-USA. If it wasn't for the USA, most of Europe wouldn't exist, because it is in the USA's interest that we are their allies, and it is in our interest that the USA is on our side.

And being number #1 would be great, but it's not necessarily the best. If being number 1 means giving up sovereignty, giving up liberty, hell, giving up democracy, then it's not worth it.

I don't care if people are richer or better than me, as long as I'm doing pretty good myself.



SamuelRSmith said:
sapphi_snake said:
SamuelRSmith said:

Why do we need Europe to have supremacy? Why would we need to be "against" the USA? Has the USA's reign of terror since the end of the Cold War been so terrible that we need to give up our sovereignty to beat them? On a relative scale, the past 20 years of US supremacy have been the most peaceful in hundreds of years. Bipolarity led to the Cold War, and multipolarity led to a) Imperalism, and b) 2 World Wars, and, up until recently, they've also been the most prosperous.

Europe should have supremacy because we live in it, and being #1 is best. We should be against the US, because we're not Americans, the US follows it's own interests, and we should follow our own. An unified Europe could be more powerful than the US, and it would be a shame never to realise that.


Yes, we should follow our own interest... but it's painstakingly obvious that our interest lies in being pro-USA. If it wasn't for the USA, most of Europe wouldn't exist, because it is in the USA's interest that we are their allies, and it is in our interest that the USA is on our side.

And being number #1 would be great, but it's not necessarily the best. If being number 1 means giving up sovereignty, giving up liberty, hell, giving up democracy, then it's not worth it.

I don't care if people are richer or better than me, as long as I'm doing pretty good myself.

Pft... not to mention being number 1 is a HUGE pain in the ass since everybody expects everything of you. 

Note Libya with the "Help UN and US" even though the US has done everything they can to try and distance themselves from it.

Also the massive amount of money the US has to spend on the Military.  For Europe to be #1 you'd have to REALLY step up your military... as the US quite literally could be Europe in a war both conventional and non-convetnional.

Given the choice, hell I'd much rather the EU be #1 and spend all the money on "policing the world" and other bullshit, let them handle Libya and every other issue and spend all that money on the military and be the main focus of most the terrorists in the world. 

American interests coincide more then enough with europe for that to be a better situation in my mind.



Kasz216 said:
SamuelRSmith said:
sapphi_snake said:
SamuelRSmith said:

Why do we need Europe to have supremacy? Why would we need to be "against" the USA? Has the USA's reign of terror since the end of the Cold War been so terrible that we need to give up our sovereignty to beat them? On a relative scale, the past 20 years of US supremacy have been the most peaceful in hundreds of years. Bipolarity led to the Cold War, and multipolarity led to a) Imperalism, and b) 2 World Wars, and, up until recently, they've also been the most prosperous.

Europe should have supremacy because we live in it, and being #1 is best. We should be against the US, because we're not Americans, the US follows it's own interests, and we should follow our own. An unified Europe could be more powerful than the US, and it would be a shame never to realise that.


Yes, we should follow our own interest... but it's painstakingly obvious that our interest lies in being pro-USA. If it wasn't for the USA, most of Europe wouldn't exist, because it is in the USA's interest that we are their allies, and it is in our interest that the USA is on our side.

And being number #1 would be great, but it's not necessarily the best. If being number 1 means giving up sovereignty, giving up liberty, hell, giving up democracy, then it's not worth it.

I don't care if people are richer or better than me, as long as I'm doing pretty good myself.

Pft... not to mention being number 1 is a HUGE pain in the ass since everybody expects everything of you.

Note Libya with the "Help UN and US" even though the US has done everything they can to try and distance themselves from it.

Also the massive amount of money the US has to spend on the Military.  For Europe to be #1 you'd have to REALLY step up your military... as the US quite literally could be Europe in a war both conventional and non-convetnional.

Given the choice, hell I'd much rather the EU be #1 and spend all the money on "policing the world" and other bullshit, let them handle Libya and every other issue and spend all that money on the military and be the main focus of most the terrorists in the world.

American interests coincide more then enough with europe for that to be a better situation in my mind.


Nah, nah, nah. I'm happy how it is.

Until I move to the States... then someone else can pay for it. :P



SamuelRSmith said:


Yes, we should follow our own interest... but it's painstakingly obvious that our interest lies in being pro-USA. If it wasn't for the USA, most of Europe wouldn't exist, because it is in the USA's interest that we are their allies, and it is in our interest that the USA is on our side.

And being number #1 would be great, but it's not necessarily the best. If being number 1 means giving up sovereignty, giving up liberty, hell, giving up democracy, then it's not worth it.

I don't care if people are richer or better than me, as long as I'm doing pretty good myself.

If it wasn't for Europe, the US wouldn't exist

It's in Europe's best interest to be independent of the US, and to leave NATO. With all the wars the US is starting, it's better to not have to get involved to be in it's good graces.

Being #1 is best of course (how can you say otherwise? how can it not be good to rule the world?), and giving up sovereignty is hardly what I'd call a big price to pay. It certainly worked for the 13 colonies, look how well they turned out. Europe could be a big powerful state, with a big powerful army, and NATO would become obsolete.

As for liberties, I don't see how a EU federal republic would hurt your freedoms. And how would an EU federal republic mean giving up democracy? If anything, it would do a better job then the individual states do today, especially the backwards eastern ones.

As Einstein used to say, nationalism is an infantile disease, so the citizens of the EU member states better give up on such sentiments (especially considering that they are responsable for the two World Wars, but alas, people never learn), and embrace an unified Europe that is the best solution for everyone in the long term (and let's face it, it's inevitable, and eventually there will be a World Sate).



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)