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Forums - General - So, the French law opposing ninjas goes into effect.

badgenome on 12 April 2011
richardhutnik said:

I notice that, from time to time, where information is missing, individuals will fill in presumptive gaps using stereotypical thinking based upon a presumed group those individuals believe someone they are thinking about holds.  What I have repeatedly stated was that, in the case of where things go wrong for an individual, either through bad luck, or the fact the person made bad decisions, is that if there isn't a means by which the person has a hope of recovering and turning it around, society won't function right.  The responsibilities go for individuals to others in the same society they are in, to offer a hand up.  Without this degree of security, then people become very self-absorbed, and even the most basic of support is missing, where such individuals can act as Scrooge and say that they help, because they pay taxes.  Of course, such individuals will also likely complain their taxes are too high, and want them reduced.  And, heck, if you died destitute in the street, well, what do you expect?  You were a loser after all, and flushing of losers is the way society can better itself.  And I can argue this is basics of the Christian religion, that if I care to even remotely associate with, I need to bow my head to and acknowledge.  Well, if it isn't for society as a whole, it is at least a mission of the church. 

In what I wrote above, what you may of read from me is that if society doesn't do this, government will find itself increasingly doing, as it feels it needs to prevent society from falling apart.  So, the state of forcing people into compliance will end up following.  In no way do I approve of this at all, but acknowledge it can happen.

Your exact words were "[...] Libertarians put the cart before the horse.  You get more freedom when people take responsibility."  Do you believe that only applies to economics, as in the original argument, and not to social matters like this? It seems a peculiar place to draw the line, especially in this case when many Muslim immigrants subsist on welfare in large part because they won't assimilate.



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Lostplanet22 on 12 April 2011
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:

I've said it once, and i'll say it again.

All the Burqa Ban does is hide the underlying issues so the French can feel good about themselves.

Which is generally the French's approach to sexism and racism.  Close your eyes and pretend everythings cool.


All this will do, is prevent women who were forced to where the Burqa from leaving their homes.  A real improvement.

While preventing those who wanted to wear it, to wear it.

 

Meanwhile, now those women who were going out into the world, are shut off more, and isolated more from society making it harder for them to break away.

Or, for the few who are treated in such a way and are let out... there is now no sign that they are beign mistreated.

 

Of course, there will be women forced to wear it anyway, and well, they'll be punished by the police, which is great... because that's what you want in society.  Laws that punish the victim.

Yes and like the law stated the husband can get a huge fine for it and probably other measures..

Try to answer this how come Turkey who banned the Burqa is one of the best muslim countries to live in for muslim women?  Coincidence?  If it wasn't for Erdogan the future for the Turkish women would be great.

It depends on if you consider correlation coincidence.

Enforce a Burqa ban in Saudi Arabia, and the women will be treated no better.  It's just Saudi Arabia wouldn't consider such a ban.

That's like asking if it's a coincidence that more resturants serve pork in turkey then everywhere else, and women's treatment is better.

Not really, women in Burqa or who wear a headscarf never have been treated equal to men, people
always belief this is because it happens in (former) christian countries where people are biased against the muslim community but even in muslim countries the same problem occurs.  Ataturk's idea was that when you ban the burqa and even ban the abilty to veil yourself when working for state/public sector would increase the rights of the women in the long end and you can only have a good society where women and men are treated equal...  Yes the first years were hard and their were women who could not leave their house;.But in the end more women won their freedom and I recommend you to visit one of the bigger city's in the west of Turkey and have a talk about it, plenty of them will say that they can only live this free thx to the ban..

When a idiot says their doesn't exist an muslim country with a good society he will get the answer that he should look up the country called Turkey...Now the same people who gave that answer should look up why this is possible..

Er?  No?  Again, your confusing correlation with causation.  You are talking about a concentrated effort to help women's rights, and then a law done in that claim, that probably had negative effects.

It's not the first time a law meant to enforce rights led too the opposite happening.

For example, france's "Colour blind" policy.  All that has done is allow racism to grow and descrimination to grow, without any official government official judging it.

Point out that a racial divide is growing, and they call you a racist.

Let me say it this way how come that their are Muslim women agreeing with the ban?  Infact how come Muslim women openly demanding for a Burqa ban?  Is this maybe because they live in the Muslim societies in France and see that the fundamental ideas like 'women are not equal to men' are becoming more popular and hope this ban could help to demotivate those men who see women not as equal to men?  The law helped to demotivate the men in Turkey why should it not help in France?

France already admitted that Colour Blind Policy is not working but at the same time leaders of others countries like UK/Germany also admitted that their policy is also not working..



 

Kasz216 on 12 April 2011
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:

I've said it once, and i'll say it again.

All the Burqa Ban does is hide the underlying issues so the French can feel good about themselves.

Which is generally the French's approach to sexism and racism.  Close your eyes and pretend everythings cool.


All this will do, is prevent women who were forced to where the Burqa from leaving their homes.  A real improvement.

While preventing those who wanted to wear it, to wear it.

 

Meanwhile, now those women who were going out into the world, are shut off more, and isolated more from society making it harder for them to break away.

Or, for the few who are treated in such a way and are let out... there is now no sign that they are beign mistreated.

 

Of course, there will be women forced to wear it anyway, and well, they'll be punished by the police, which is great... because that's what you want in society.  Laws that punish the victim.

Yes and like the law stated the husband can get a huge fine for it and probably other measures..

Try to answer this how come Turkey who banned the Burqa is one of the best muslim countries to live in for muslim women?  Coincidence?  If it wasn't for Erdogan the future for the Turkish women would be great.

It depends on if you consider correlation coincidence.

Enforce a Burqa ban in Saudi Arabia, and the women will be treated no better.  It's just Saudi Arabia wouldn't consider such a ban.

That's like asking if it's a coincidence that more resturants serve pork in turkey then everywhere else, and women's treatment is better.

Not really, women in Burqa or who wear a headscarf never have been treated equal to men, people
always belief this is because it happens in (former) christian countries where people are biased against the muslim community but even in muslim countries the same problem occurs.  Ataturk's idea was that when you ban the burqa and even ban the abilty to veil yourself when working for state/public sector would increase the rights of the women in the long end and you can only have a good society where women and men are treated equal...  Yes the first years were hard and their were women who could not leave their house;.But in the end more women won their freedom and I recommend you to visit one of the bigger city's in the west of Turkey and have a talk about it, plenty of them will say that they can only live this free thx to the ban..

When a idiot says their doesn't exist an muslim country with a good society he will get the answer that he should look up the country called Turkey...Now the same people who gave that answer should look up why this is possible..

Er?  No?  Again, your confusing correlation with causation.  You are talking about a concentrated effort to help women's rights, and then a law done in that claim, that probably had negative effects.

It's not the first time a law meant to enforce rights led too the opposite happening.

For example, france's "Colour blind" policy.  All that has done is allow racism to grow and descrimination to grow, without any official government official judging it.

Point out that a racial divide is growing, and they call you a racist.

Let me say it this way how come that their are Muslim women agreeing with the ban?  Infact how come Muslim women openly demanding for a Burqa ban?  Is this maybe because they live in the Muslim societies in France and see that the fundamental ideas like 'women are not equal to men' are becoming more popular and hope this ban could help to demotivate those men who see women not as equal to men?  The law helped to demotivate the men in Turkey why should it not help in France?

France already admitted that Colour Blind Policy is not working but at the same time leaders of others countries like UK/Germany also admitted that their policy is also not working..

Why are there people against the ban too? 

It ddn't help demotivate the men of Turkey.  You just want to read into it that they did.

And your avoidence of the other post, generally proves that point.

Though yeah, the UK and German plans aren't working either, that's why there has been an increased effort to adopt US thinking in the fields of sexism and racism.

The basic fundamentals and understandings of sexism and racism are somewhat primitive in europe.  There is like a breakdown in the very construct of sexism.  Treating it as an economic construct rather then a sociological one.

 

Economic solutions will not fix an issue of society.



Kasz216 on 12 April 2011

Or to further elaborate.   Time and time again has shown that economic issues without changing the social issues leads to a huge backlash and possible eventual regression, making such efforts a failed effort.

Turkey actually being a great example.

Afterall the elected officials are doing everything they can now to repeal the burqa ban, but are being stopped by unelected officials. 

How much did it really change opinions in turkey?



Lostplanet22 on 12 April 2011
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

Sarkozy doubles his risk for assassination, and if the French equivalent to the secret service is prepared for Jihadist terrorist attack, they'll be blindsided by the Shinobi

 

It's an interesting law because it's one of those things that can get support from both the right and left. Left likes it because it liberates Muslim women, right likes it because it imposes French values on the immigrants.

Unless, their husbands just don't let them leave the house now.  Like Saudi Arabia.

That would certainly be harder to regulate...

If it was in Saudi Arabia yes....But in France who has enough organisations to help those women..they have a chance, and considering Europe is open they can even try to start a life in an other country.

If this is true, then the Burqa ban is superfluous.

If this isn't true, then it's going to be even harder for those women to reach  and find said orginizations... and a hell of a lot harder for these orginizations to find those women.


Which is it?

This has more to do about the future of France than today, France is an changing country and most French already respected the idea that the possibility exist that in 50 years France can become a muslim country, already today their are more mosques than churches and in cities the moslims are (becoming) the majority... but at the same time the rights for muslim women are becoming worse, and the numbers of fundamentalists are growing and it is getting harder for  Muslim women to live like the majority of the women do in Europe not because of the Europeans but because of the Muslim community doesn't except it,  the ban can help those muslim women who wants to live like other European women do...yes I am biast and prefer to support the women who are muslim and live like European women and are behind the ban than the ones who say to their 11 year old daughter that she has to wear a headscarf and that she has to listen to her brothers and nephews because they are boys.


So your dodging the question then.  Again.  If any of what your saying is true in that sentence, all this ban does is hinder the rights of fundamentalist muslim women and your goals, as it's harder to reach those women.

Not really dodging the question, I just miscomprhend the word 'superfluous' and thought you meant superficial.

To answer your question,  No I think it is not superfluous. It would demotivate husbands to demand their wife to wear one... The problem is that you are very negative about it...If 100 women can not go outside without wearing one you think the majorite have to stay at home right? 
About that part I can't prove your wrong but can't prove your right either..

I believe their are women who accept that they have to wear a burqa when they go outside;.But when they can't go out they will be motivated to search for help. And that makes me believe of those 100 women the majority will get help and also for new immigrants this will be helpfull if the men know they can't order their women to wear burqa's outside;.




 

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Lostplanet22 on 12 April 2011
Kasz216 said:

Or to further elaborate.   Time and time again has shown that economic issues without changing the social issues leads to a huge backlash and possible eventual regression, making such efforts a failed effort.

Turkey actually being a great example.

Afterall the elected officials are doing everything they can now to repeal the burqa ban, but are being stopped by unelected officials.

How much did it really change opinions in turkey?

Yes thx to erdogan who believes that the seperation of church and state is wrong...His views about the Islam are that fundamental that he gets the support of muslims who are against the believe that women and men are equal.... And who is supporting this man?  Yes the USA..



TURKEY: Murders of Muslim women up 1400% since Erdogan took office
Posted: February 27, 2011 | Author: barenakedislam | Filed under: EnemyWithin-foreign | 24 Comments »
Significant women’s rights legislation has been passed in Turkey in recent years, but now that a radical Islamist is in charge, those rights are ignored and (‘honor’) abuse/killings of women by Muslim men is on the rise.


The Balance of power between the forces of radical Islam and Western democracy underwent a monumental sea change recently when 58% of the voters in Turkey approved of a referendum that will bolster the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) and serve to transform the once secular nation into an Islamic republic.

This is bad news for the secularists since Erdogan in the past has attempted to dissolve all distinction between mosque and state. He instituted legislation that would make adultery a criminal offense and attempted to lift the ban on women wearing head coverings and burqas in the public universities. “This is a radical decision point for the future of Turkey,” said lawyer Baris Aslan. “This is the spot between the religious and the secular, between despotism or democracy.

Despite the fact that Turkey under the AKP strengthened its bonds to Iran and Syria and severed its ties to Israel, President Barack Obama has been supportive of the Erdogan regime, lauding what he called Turkey’s thriving democracy.




 

Lostplanet22 on 12 April 2011
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:

I've said it once, and i'll say it again.

All the Burqa Ban does is hide the underlying issues so the French can feel good about themselves.

Which is generally the French's approach to sexism and racism.  Close your eyes and pretend everythings cool.


All this will do, is prevent women who were forced to where the Burqa from leaving their homes.  A real improvement.

While preventing those who wanted to wear it, to wear it.

 

Meanwhile, now those women who were going out into the world, are shut off more, and isolated more from society making it harder for them to break away.

Or, for the few who are treated in such a way and are let out... there is now no sign that they are beign mistreated.

 

Of course, there will be women forced to wear it anyway, and well, they'll be punished by the police, which is great... because that's what you want in society.  Laws that punish the victim.

Yes and like the law stated the husband can get a huge fine for it and probably other measures..

Try to answer this how come Turkey who banned the Burqa is one of the best muslim countries to live in for muslim women?  Coincidence?  If it wasn't for Erdogan the future for the Turkish women would be great.

It depends on if you consider correlation coincidence.

Enforce a Burqa ban in Saudi Arabia, and the women will be treated no better.  It's just Saudi Arabia wouldn't consider such a ban.

That's like asking if it's a coincidence that more resturants serve pork in turkey then everywhere else, and women's treatment is better.

Not really, women in Burqa or who wear a headscarf never have been treated equal to men, people
always belief this is because it happens in (former) christian countries where people are biased against the muslim community but even in muslim countries the same problem occurs.  Ataturk's idea was that when you ban the burqa and even ban the abilty to veil yourself when working for state/public sector would increase the rights of the women in the long end and you can only have a good society where women and men are treated equal...  Yes the first years were hard and their were women who could not leave their house;.But in the end more women won their freedom and I recommend you to visit one of the bigger city's in the west of Turkey and have a talk about it, plenty of them will say that they can only live this free thx to the ban..

When a idiot says their doesn't exist an muslim country with a good society he will get the answer that he should look up the country called Turkey...Now the same people who gave that answer should look up why this is possible..

Er?  No?  Again, your confusing correlation with causation.  You are talking about a concentrated effort to help women's rights, and then a law done in that claim, that probably had negative effects.

It's not the first time a law meant to enforce rights led too the opposite happening.

For example, france's "Colour blind" policy.  All that has done is allow racism to grow and descrimination to grow, without any official government official judging it.

Point out that a racial divide is growing, and they call you a racist.

Let me say it this way how come that their are Muslim women agreeing with the ban?  Infact how come Muslim women openly demanding for a Burqa ban?  Is this maybe because they live in the Muslim societies in France and see that the fundamental ideas like 'women are not equal to men' are becoming more popular and hope this ban could help to demotivate those men who see women not as equal to men?  The law helped to demotivate the men in Turkey why should it not help in France?

France already admitted that Colour Blind Policy is not working but at the same time leaders of others countries like UK/Germany also admitted that their policy is also not working..

Why are there people against the ban too?

1)It ddn't help demotivate the men of Turkey.  You just want to read into it that they did.

2)And your avoidence of the other post, generally proves that point.

3)Though yeah, the UK and German plans aren't working either, that's why there has been an increased effort to adopt US thinking in the fields of sexism and racism.

The basic fundamentals and understandings of sexism and racism are somewhat primitive in europe.  There is like a breakdown in the very construct of sexism.  Treating it as an economic construct rather then a sociological one.

 

Economic solutions will not fix an issue of society.

Because it are mostly people who can not accept that someone doesn't like something from an other race/religion?  If I say that I don't like the muslim culture their will be a bunch of people who will call me a racist even if their are muslims saying it....


Not of all of them ofcourse some just want equality and mean it good like you.



And I would appreciate if you answered my questions why their are muslim women demanding for an burqa ban..

1) It is true that I cant' prove it but can you prove that it didn't demotivate those men?

2) I was not avoiding but typing an answer to the other post it just took a while before I could answer it.

3) I can not agree with this one, all EU coutries have different approach still all of them with an 4-10% muslim community are having the same problem...Going from France to the north of Europe like Sweden..









 

Kasz216 on 12 April 2011
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:

Or to further elaborate.   Time and time again has shown that economic issues without changing the social issues leads to a huge backlash and possible eventual regression, making such efforts a failed effort.

Turkey actually being a great example.

Afterall the elected officials are doing everything they can now to repeal the burqa ban, but are being stopped by unelected officials.

How much did it really change opinions in turkey?

Yes thx to erdogan who believes that the seperation of church and state is wrong...His views about the Islam are that fundamental that he gets the support of muslims who are against the believe that women and men are equal.... And who is supporting this man?  Yes the USA..



TURKEY: Murders of Muslim women up 1400% since Erdogan took office
Posted: February 27, 2011 | Author: barenakedislam | Filed under: EnemyWithin-foreign | 24 Comments »
Significant women’s rights legislation has been passed in Turkey in recent years, but now that a radical Islamist is in charge, those rights are ignored and (‘honor’) abuse/killings of women by Muslim men is on the rise.


The Balance of power between the forces of radical Islam and Western democracy underwent a monumental sea change recently when 58% of the voters in Turkey approved of a referendum that will bolster the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) and serve to transform the once secular nation into an Islamic republic.

This is bad news for the secularists since Erdogan in the past has attempted to dissolve all distinction between mosque and state. He instituted legislation that would make adultery a criminal offense and attempted to lift the ban on women wearing head coverings and burqas in the public universities. “This is a radical decision point for the future of Turkey,” said lawyer Baris Aslan. “This is the spot between the religious and the secular, between despotism or democracy.

Despite the fact that Turkey under the AKP strengthened its bonds to Iran and Syria and severed its ties to Israel, President Barack Obama has been supportive of the Erdogan regime, lauding what he called Turkey’s thriving democracy.

I don't see your point. 

 

Outside dodging the fact that i'm right by trying to get me to bite on the bait that the US is supporting them. 



Kasz216 on 12 April 2011
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:

I've said it once, and i'll say it again.

All the Burqa Ban does is hide the underlying issues so the French can feel good about themselves.

Which is generally the French's approach to sexism and racism.  Close your eyes and pretend everythings cool.


All this will do, is prevent women who were forced to where the Burqa from leaving their homes.  A real improvement.

While preventing those who wanted to wear it, to wear it.

 

Meanwhile, now those women who were going out into the world, are shut off more, and isolated more from society making it harder for them to break away.

Or, for the few who are treated in such a way and are let out... there is now no sign that they are beign mistreated.

 

Of course, there will be women forced to wear it anyway, and well, they'll be punished by the police, which is great... because that's what you want in society.  Laws that punish the victim.

Yes and like the law stated the husband can get a huge fine for it and probably other measures..

Try to answer this how come Turkey who banned the Burqa is one of the best muslim countries to live in for muslim women?  Coincidence?  If it wasn't for Erdogan the future for the Turkish women would be great.

It depends on if you consider correlation coincidence.

Enforce a Burqa ban in Saudi Arabia, and the women will be treated no better.  It's just Saudi Arabia wouldn't consider such a ban.

That's like asking if it's a coincidence that more resturants serve pork in turkey then everywhere else, and women's treatment is better.

Not really, women in Burqa or who wear a headscarf never have been treated equal to men, people
always belief this is because it happens in (former) christian countries where people are biased against the muslim community but even in muslim countries the same problem occurs.  Ataturk's idea was that when you ban the burqa and even ban the abilty to veil yourself when working for state/public sector would increase the rights of the women in the long end and you can only have a good society where women and men are treated equal...  Yes the first years were hard and their were women who could not leave their house;.But in the end more women won their freedom and I recommend you to visit one of the bigger city's in the west of Turkey and have a talk about it, plenty of them will say that they can only live this free thx to the ban..

When a idiot says their doesn't exist an muslim country with a good society he will get the answer that he should look up the country called Turkey...Now the same people who gave that answer should look up why this is possible..

Er?  No?  Again, your confusing correlation with causation.  You are talking about a concentrated effort to help women's rights, and then a law done in that claim, that probably had negative effects.

It's not the first time a law meant to enforce rights led too the opposite happening.

For example, france's "Colour blind" policy.  All that has done is allow racism to grow and descrimination to grow, without any official government official judging it.

Point out that a racial divide is growing, and they call you a racist.

Let me say it this way how come that their are Muslim women agreeing with the ban?  Infact how come Muslim women openly demanding for a Burqa ban?  Is this maybe because they live in the Muslim societies in France and see that the fundamental ideas like 'women are not equal to men' are becoming more popular and hope this ban could help to demotivate those men who see women not as equal to men?  The law helped to demotivate the men in Turkey why should it not help in France?

France already admitted that Colour Blind Policy is not working but at the same time leaders of others countries like UK/Germany also admitted that their policy is also not working..

Why are there people against the ban too?

1)It ddn't help demotivate the men of Turkey.  You just want to read into it that they did.

2)And your avoidence of the other post, generally proves that point.

3)Though yeah, the UK and German plans aren't working either, that's why there has been an increased effort to adopt US thinking in the fields of sexism and racism.

The basic fundamentals and understandings of sexism and racism are somewhat primitive in europe.  There is like a breakdown in the very construct of sexism.  Treating it as an economic construct rather then a sociological one.

 

Economic solutions will not fix an issue of society.

Because it are mostly people who can not accept that someone doesn't like something from an other race/religion?  If I say that I don't like the muslim culture their will be a bunch of people who will call me a racist even if their are muslims saying it....


Not of all of them ofcourse some just want equality and mean it good like you.



And I would appreciate if you answered my questions why their are muslim women demanding for an burqa ban..

1) It is true that I cant' prove it but can you prove that it didn't demotivate those men?

2) I was not avoiding but typing an answer to the other post it just took a while before I could answer it.

3) I can not agree with this one, all EU coutries have different approach still all of them with an 4-10% muslim community are having the same problem...Going from France to the north of Europe like Sweden..


1) You mean, outside the fact that the Burqa ban is getting put back in place and that it's being used as a rallying cry for groups like the AKP?   That already was the proof.  Even if all the women were let out of the house without it.  They are no more likely to get help then they were before.  In fact that are far less likely to get help... because now they can't be targeted by orginzations.  Instead of targeting women in a Burka, a red flag that may suggest someone is being abused they now focus on.... what?

It's like if you said "We've got a neo nazi problem.  We will solve it by making it illegal to wear a swastika!".

It's a naive and pointless gesture.

2) Great.  Though in that post you still avoided the question.

3) Once again, that's because all Euroepon countries share a europeon economic view of sexism and racism, when sexism and racism is a culturally issue that needs to be solved culturally.



richardhutnik on 12 April 2011
badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

I notice that, from time to time, where information is missing, individuals will fill in presumptive gaps using stereotypical thinking based upon a presumed group those individuals believe someone they are thinking about holds.  What I have repeatedly stated was that, in the case of where things go wrong for an individual, either through bad luck, or the fact the person made bad decisions, is that if there isn't a means by which the person has a hope of recovering and turning it around, society won't function right.  The responsibilities go for individuals to others in the same society they are in, to offer a hand up.  Without this degree of security, then people become very self-absorbed, and even the most basic of support is missing, where such individuals can act as Scrooge and say that they help, because they pay taxes.  Of course, such individuals will also likely complain their taxes are too high, and want them reduced.  And, heck, if you died destitute in the street, well, what do you expect?  You were a loser after all, and flushing of losers is the way society can better itself.  And I can argue this is basics of the Christian religion, that if I care to even remotely associate with, I need to bow my head to and acknowledge.  Well, if it isn't for society as a whole, it is at least a mission of the church. 

In what I wrote above, what you may of read from me is that if society doesn't do this, government will find itself increasingly doing, as it feels it needs to prevent society from falling apart.  So, the state of forcing people into compliance will end up following.  In no way do I approve of this at all, but acknowledge it can happen.

Your exact words were "[...] Libertarians put the cart before the horse.  You get more freedom when people take responsibility."  Do you believe that only applies to economics, as in the original argument, and not to social matters like this? It seems a peculiar place to draw the line, especially in this case when many Muslim immigrants subsist on welfare in large part because they won't assimilate.

And go with what I said.  I said that you will get more freedom when individuals in a society take more responsibility.  You don't create more responsibility by granting more freedom.  Society doesn't magically become better just because more freedom is given. As I said, Libertarians put the cart before the horse here.  It refers to all areas actually.  Take the case of freedom in the Mideast.  In cases where the citizens did uprising from the ground up and took ownership, transition was much more stable and worked.  Now, contrast what happened in Iraq.  It was a Liberation applied by outside force overthrowing Saddam.  The end result of the liberation in Iraq, as opposed to Egypt, was chaos in the street and YEARS of civil unrest, and a number of American deaths and billions spent.  Going, "BLAM YOU ARE FREE" without the foundation in society to handle it, is merely chaos waiting to unfold.

On this note, the conservative side is more accurate here in regards to the nature of reality.  That is why conservatives will fight a battle to preserve certain values.  Of course, WHAT those values are does matter.