dsis

What was so important about gauging the town's thoughts on those questions?

It really looked like you were looking for support in voting Heph.

"Also like I say constantly. Votes aren't like herpes, go ahead and spread them around they don't last forever :)"

-

You also said that 20% rule was more popular on this forum. It really isn't. We almost always go for 1-3 ratio. 25%

"20% Or one in five "- that is a ridiculous setup. One free night and day for every mafia playing. With 5 mafia, that would be 4 days of free mislynching when every day those lynches and night kills bring the town closer and closer to finding a mafia. Also, with so many townies, that would really secure a cop getting many investigations.

-

I also think that going after someone because they admit to "lying" is very meta, as is your discussion of the game structure. That leads me to believe that you are trying to create discussion where none really exists; Rationalizing your vote (despite your carefree attitude about voting), and typically coming off as "safe" and "supported".

-

I don't think a mafia should be coming off with so much attention, but I'd be willing to vote you rather than Heph.

Also, I agree wit Heph. Lying is important for townies. I think townies should tell the truth as much as possible, but there are always good reasons to lie. I don't think liars should always be lynched as the meta rule states, but people who are caught in a lie should be.

There's a difference between lying and being caught in a lie.

1) What's wrong with creating discussion? Any Day One discussion has to be "artificially created" since there's nothing to go on at that point.

2) There's goes my hopes for gambit-free prof.

I am exagerating to make my point stand out. I don't draw any conclusions on FF from all this don't worry ^^.

1) Well, there is nothing wrong with creating discussion. However, this isn't really a strong path for discussion. These questions, "how do you feel about day 1 lynching", and "is it ok for a townie to lie", these are good questions to ask when there is nothing else to talk about to make it appear that one is contributing. These are "safe" questions. 

For example, during the discussion earlier about annoying orange, someone said, "yes because it has nothing to do with the fact that he (forget who he was mentioning) and I (forget who the person who said it) both watch annoying orange on youtube.

That response actually came off as defensive. The person quoting it took the same notice I did but followed it with another joke. There you have something concrete to go after. All sorts of conversation can stem from that post. 

You can file Dsis' questions as "unrelated", IMO, because not much information will be garnered from such discussion. It's just (and no offense to anyone) mindless banter that LOOKS like actual discussion.

2) A lie is not a gambit. A gambit is a sacrifice. It's inherent design is that you sacrifice either someone else, or yourself, or credibility in order to draw out an opportune mafia move. It is based on a lie usually, as the conditions involved in gambits almost require day-time response.

I am done with doing gambits, though, for now. Saying that townies can lie is not saying gambits are OK. I simply don't have enough experience to be able to correctly interpret the gambit return information.

But, I do think it's OK to lie if you have a good reason.

there are many ways to lie that have no possible negative effects.

Situation: Vanilla games as we had in the past few rounds (so no tracker/watcher)

Doc roleclaims day 3 after a successful save day 1 and deadP1  dying day 2.

/ _who did you heal night one? and 2?

/ _myself (when he in fact healed DeadP1) and myself

-> no loss of info for the town (deadP1 is already cleared and dead).

-> confusion for the mafia as they believe there could be an other doctor/roleblocker.

does it open the door to an other roleclaim? no cause the town has no reason to believe that the save was not on himself.

Did the doc need to lie? no

Can this be harmfull for the town? no

Is it beneficial to the town? yes as it confuses the mafia and potentially extends the life of the cop when outed.

Find me a negative effect for the town.

why just him? there's 4 afks no?

Unless there is an insane amount of talking day 1 I am for a lynch. It generates discussion.

The second one is an interesting question. Lying is flat out dumb in mafia for both sides. Every lie significantly cuts your potential lifespan. Deception is a different story though, and is the heart and soul of the game for both sides. Heph seems to consider deception lying which seems weird to me.

I am against them typically. Slowing the game down sucks regardless of the reason.

Since Heph is an unrepentant liar (contrary to what I initially thought he was saying) I am comfortable with voting him.

Vote Hephaestos

P.S.  Those votes you claim are "lies" are actually honest.  I may bounce my vote around but that doesn't mean I'd be dismayed if any of them succeeded in lynching that person.  For it to be analogous to a lie I'd have to NOT actually want to lynch them. 

we once had this exact same conversation a few games back in which people (who turned out to be mafia) said that deception IS lying.

The doctor just roleclaimed, that's bad for the town. :P

Seriously, the rare circumstances I mentionned in my reply to dsister involve a power role questionned about who he is but if we take your little scenario in consideration:

- If the doctor roleclaimed, it's because he was about to be lynched (or else he's an idiot)

- A doctor who can protect himself is rare and one that can do so two nights in a row is practically unheard of (on VGC at least). So someone hearing that claim could very well decide he's lying and hammer him.

Now, I know there are ways to fix your scenario so the doctor doesn't claim to have protected himself twice and still retain the benefits you mentionned but as you can see, lying is very risky business and if you forget a little detail (like above) you'll get caught and the consequences will be detrimental to the town.