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Forums - General - Should the Libyan rebels be asking for more protests?

Kantor said:

I've seen four different spellings of Gaddafi in this thread, so I'll stick with my own.

We are now beyond the point where protests are going to achieve anything. A resistance movement has been created. Granted, it doesn't really seem to have any ideas beyond "Down with Gaddafi" (or maybe that's just what the media is telling us), but in any case, protesting will just lead to more innocent deaths, and Gaddafi isn't the sort of man who would be stopped by that sort of thing.

What the rebels need to do is:

1) Write up a manifesto. It's all well and good to complain, but they do need to think of how to fix the country's problems.

2) Form a political party that represents the views of the enormous majority of rebels. If this is not possible, form multiple parties, allied together to fight Gaddafi. The latter will not be nearly as effective. It will be like the Russian Civil War, but it's better than nothing.

3) Speak on the world stage. Let people in other nations know what is happening. Ask foreign leaders for help. Obama put a lot of faith in the revolution when he called for Gaddafi to resign. Use that, and build upon it.

If they don't do these things, sure, they might topple Gaddafi. But they won't be any better. It will either be:

a) Complete anarchy.

b) Full civil war.

c) Another tyrannical government.

Look at the Bolshevik Revolution. Strong leaders. A single cause with hundreds of thousands of followers. Strong propaganda. Decisive action at the right time, and they took power with very little difficulty. Sure, it caused civil war, but they still won. And it led to tyranny only because that was what Marx had been saying from the very start.

I didn't notice this before but could you clarify on what you mean by Anarchy?

I believe you mean they could become a rouge nation and not a Anarchy since Anarchism is only the absence of government with individual values.

Otherwise I totally agree or to the very least can see where your coming from with the rest of your post.



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dib8rman said:
Kantor said:

I've seen four different spellings of Gaddafi in this thread, so I'll stick with my own.

We are now beyond the point where protests are going to achieve anything. A resistance movement has been created. Granted, it doesn't really seem to have any ideas beyond "Down with Gaddafi" (or maybe that's just what the media is telling us), but in any case, protesting will just lead to more innocent deaths, and Gaddafi isn't the sort of man who would be stopped by that sort of thing.

What the rebels need to do is:

1) Write up a manifesto. It's all well and good to complain, but they do need to think of how to fix the country's problems.

2) Form a political party that represents the views of the enormous majority of rebels. If this is not possible, form multiple parties, allied together to fight Gaddafi. The latter will not be nearly as effective. It will be like the Russian Civil War, but it's better than nothing.

3) Speak on the world stage. Let people in other nations know what is happening. Ask foreign leaders for help. Obama put a lot of faith in the revolution when he called for Gaddafi to resign. Use that, and build upon it.

If they don't do these things, sure, they might topple Gaddafi. But they won't be any better. It will either be:

a) Complete anarchy.

b) Full civil war.

c) Another tyrannical government.

Look at the Bolshevik Revolution. Strong leaders. A single cause with hundreds of thousands of followers. Strong propaganda. Decisive action at the right time, and they took power with very little difficulty. Sure, it caused civil war, but they still won. And it led to tyranny only because that was what Marx had been saying from the very start.

I didn't notice this before but could you clarify on what you mean by Anarchy?

I believe you mean they could become a rouge nation and not a Anarchy since Anarchism is only the absence of government with individual values.

Otherwise I totally agree or to the very least can see where your coming from with the rest of your post.

I meant something like Somalia. No central government that controls any significant portion of the country, no rule of law, and it can be safely classed as a failed state.



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dib8rman said:

 

The Arab League has no business in Libya either, or at least they have as much business as NATO. The League first and foremost must observe their members nations sovereignty.

It would be no different than if the US got involved. At this point if the AL did get involved the US would be forced to as well just for the politics of the matter.

I'm afraid Khadafy so far is within every right to uphold the law of his land and the global community can just sit and watch.

If your reasoning is that simply because of geography and the consequences within that the AL are qualified to be involved in Libya without Khadafy breaking international accord then the US and UN have every right to enter Iran at any point in time or Saudi Arabia; simply because we are on the same planet.

Gadaffi has no right to murder his own citizens. It is probable that his actions so far constitute crimes against humanity.

If this devolves into a simple civil war then the international community probably should not intervene militarily, only logistically. However if Gadaffi continues along the route he currently seems to be taking - attacks against civilians - then the international community has a responsibility to act. Countries sitting idly by and allowing genocides to happen because it's too messy to get involved is hopefully a thing of the past.



Rath said:
dib8rman said:
 

 

The Arab League has no business in Libya either, or at least they have as much business as NATO. The League first and foremost must observe their members nations sovereignty.

It would be no different than if the US got involved. At this point if the AL did get involved the US would be forced to as well just for the politics of the matter.

I'm afraid Khadafy so far is within every right to uphold the law of his land and the global community can just sit and watch.

If your reasoning is that simply because of geography and the consequences within that the AL are qualified to be involved in Libya without Khadafy breaking international accord then the US and UN have every right to enter Iran at any point in time or Saudi Arabia; simply because we are on the same planet.

Gadaffi has no right to murder his own citizens. It is probable that his actions so far constitute crimes against humanity.

If this devolves into a simple civil war then the international community probably should not intervene militarily, only logistically. However if Gadaffi continues along the route he currently seems to be taking - attacks against civilians - then the international community has a responsibility to act. Countries sitting idly by and allowing genocides to happen because it's too messy to get involved is hopefully a thing of the past.

Actually he has every right, the rulers second job is to protect the citizens the first is to protect the Nation. Again it's easy to say something could be something that it isn't.



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dib8rman said:
Rath said:
dib8rman said:
 

 

The Arab League has no business in Libya either, or at least they have as much business as NATO. The League first and foremost must observe their members nations sovereignty.

It would be no different than if the US got involved. At this point if the AL did get involved the US would be forced to as well just for the politics of the matter.

I'm afraid Khadafy so far is within every right to uphold the law of his land and the global community can just sit and watch.

If your reasoning is that simply because of geography and the consequences within that the AL are qualified to be involved in Libya without Khadafy breaking international accord then the US and UN have every right to enter Iran at any point in time or Saudi Arabia; simply because we are on the same planet.

Gadaffi has no right to murder his own citizens. It is probable that his actions so far constitute crimes against humanity.

If this devolves into a simple civil war then the international community probably should not intervene militarily, only logistically. However if Gadaffi continues along the route he currently seems to be taking - attacks against civilians - then the international community has a responsibility to act. Countries sitting idly by and allowing genocides to happen because it's too messy to get involved is hopefully a thing of the past.

Actually he has every right, the rulers second job is to protect the citizens the first is to protect the Nation. Again it's easy to say something could be something that it isn't.


In other words he has no right. The nation wants him gone the majority of the people want him gone. The foreign Governments that support his nation are undecided but many want him gone. His own Government is falling apart wanting him gone. Sanctions are being impossed that can only hurt the nation.

Its his job to protect the nation and killing his unarmed civilians is not going to accomplish that. The only thing he can do to protect his nation is to step down. Rath is right if he doesn't step down and the rebels fail to unify and conquer him. Then the nation of Libya could become a failed state like Somalia and that is not in the best interest of the country or its people.

Gaddafi needs to put his country before himself!



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Joelcool7 said:
dib8rman said:
Rath said:
dib8rman said:
 

 

The Arab League has no business in Libya either, or at least they have as much business as NATO. The League first and foremost must observe their members nations sovereignty.

It would be no different than if the US got involved. At this point if the AL did get involved the US would be forced to as well just for the politics of the matter.

I'm afraid Khadafy so far is within every right to uphold the law of his land and the global community can just sit and watch.

If your reasoning is that simply because of geography and the consequences within that the AL are qualified to be involved in Libya without Khadafy breaking international accord then the US and UN have every right to enter Iran at any point in time or Saudi Arabia; simply because we are on the same planet.

Gadaffi has no right to murder his own citizens. It is probable that his actions so far constitute crimes against humanity.

If this devolves into a simple civil war then the international community probably should not intervene militarily, only logistically. However if Gadaffi continues along the route he currently seems to be taking - attacks against civilians - then the international community has a responsibility to act. Countries sitting idly by and allowing genocides to happen because it's too messy to get involved is hopefully a thing of the past.

Actually he has every right, the rulers second job is to protect the citizens the first is to protect the Nation. Again it's easy to say something could be something that it isn't.


In other words he has no right. The nation wants him gone the majority of the people want him gone. The foreign Governments that support his nation are undecided but many want him gone. His own Government is falling apart wanting him gone. Sanctions are being impossed that can only hurt the nation.

Its his job to protect the nation and killing his unarmed civilians is not going to accomplish that. The only thing he can do to protect his nation is to step down. Rath is right if he doesn't step down and the rebels fail to unify and conquer him. Then the nation of Libya could become a failed state like Somalia and that is not in the best interest of the country or its people.

Gaddafi needs to put his country before himself!

As long as you can understand that that is how you want it to be your absolutely correct.

The only way you would be correct in  reality is if his private Army or some political force coup's.  The people's uprising has not gone beyond unrest only because they have not labeled Khadafy as an invading entity nor have they supplemented that kind of declaration with crafted borders and begun annexing Khadafy's land in turn saying otherwise would be mocking the English lexicon.



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dib8rman said:
Rath said:

Gadaffi has no right to murder his own citizens. It is probable that his actions so far constitute crimes against humanity.

If this devolves into a simple civil war then the international community probably should not intervene militarily, only logistically. However if Gadaffi continues along the route he currently seems to be taking - attacks against civilians - then the international community has a responsibility to act. Countries sitting idly by and allowing genocides to happen because it's too messy to get involved is hopefully a thing of the past.

Actually he has every right, the rulers second job is to protect the citizens the first is to protect the Nation. Again it's easy to say something could be something that it isn't.

If he was only attacking armed rebels I'd quite possibly agree with you. Attacking unarmed civilians en masse is a crime against humanity and he clearly has no right. This is the reason why the ICC is investigating.



The opposition has a functioning governing council, they should just declare themselves, then the UN can recognize and render aid (it really seems like nobody gives a damn about Qadaffi in any serious way)



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Mr Khan said:

The opposition has a functioning governing council, they should just declare themselves, then the UN can recognize and render aid (it really seems like nobody gives a damn about Qadaffi in any serious way)

Why would they be investigating, Libya isn't within their jurisdiction; they are neither ratified nor signatories.
I would figure that would raise more red flags and questions on why are they interfering in the affairs of a sovereign country that they have no right to collaberation with.

Genocide is a legality so I can see them looking into that but I guess it depends on what they or you mean by investigation anyway or rather how they intend to investigate.



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The Official Huge Monster Hunter Thread: 



The Hunt Begins 4/20/2010 =D

dib8rman said:
Mr Khan said:

The opposition has a functioning governing council, they should just declare themselves, then the UN can recognize and render aid (it really seems like nobody gives a damn about Qadaffi in any serious way)

Why would they be investigating, Libya isn't within their jurisdiction; they are neither ratified nor signatories.
I would figure that would raise more red flags and questions on why are they interfering in the affairs of a sovereign country that they have no right to collaberation with.

Genocide is a legality so I can see them looking into that but I guess it depends on what they or you mean by investigation anyway or rather how they intend to investigate.


This seems to be a reply to my post. They have the right to investigate as it was referred to the ICC by the UN Security Council, which is the only way a state which is not party to the treaty can fall under the jurisdiction of the ICC.