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Forums - Sony - Sony’s War on Makers, Hackers, and Innovators

markers said:

I skimmed through and noticed this,

"George Hotz (GeoHot) isn’t just a random kid, he’s our future. He should be celebrated and considered a role model for anyone interested in science and technology."

Yes he is the future. But so am I. And so our my friends, siblings, and any other random kid you can find on the street. George Hotz should in no way be celebrated nor considered a role model of any sort. He has talents, that is for sure, but he should keep some of his practices to himself.

 

'You should read the next few paragraphs.  They explain why he should be celebrated.  Or maybe the couple before it.

If you weren't skimming it'd make much more sense.





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Kasz216 said:
funkateer said:

"See the recent phone rulings... it was ruled legal because the same steps needed to make use  of legal locked programs allowed piracy.

The piracy is still illegal, but not the jailbreaking iteslf."

As I understood the phone rulings, jailbraking the iPhone was deemed legal because the court ruled that locking the iPhone was not to protect copyright or security, but only to prevent competition of phone carriers. As such, it was also stated that jailbreaking an iPad is still illegal.

Phone carriers are obviously not involved in the PS3 case, so it's an entirely different matter.


I'd reread the  lawsuit... the ruling effects all mobile devices, and not just for use of phone carrier, but also "free aps" vs an "app store".

Or in this case "Hombrew" vs "Liscensed products."

Not all mobile devices, all mobile phones. It does not include iPads, for example.

Here are the 6 exemptions detailed:

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2006/11/new-dmca-exemptions-granted

It says nothing about 'free apps vs app store' or 'licensed products vs homebrew'. It says nothing about geohots PS3 jailbreak being legal.



funkateer said:
Kasz216 said:
funkateer said:

"See the recent phone rulings... it was ruled legal because the same steps needed to make use  of legal locked programs allowed piracy.

The piracy is still illegal, but not the jailbreaking iteslf."

As I understood the phone rulings, jailbraking the iPhone was deemed legal because the court ruled that locking the iPhone was not to protect copyright or security, but only to prevent competition of phone carriers. As such, it was also stated that jailbreaking an iPad is still illegal.

Phone carriers are obviously not involved in the PS3 case, so it's an entirely different matter.


I'd reread the  lawsuit... the ruling effects all mobile devices, and not just for use of phone carrier, but also "free aps" vs an "app store".

Or in this case "Hombrew" vs "Liscensed products."

Not all mobile devices, all mobile phones. It does not include iPads, for example.

Here are the 6 exemptions detailed:

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2006/11/new-dmca-exemptions-granted

It says nothing about 'free apps vs app store' or 'licensed products vs homebrew'. It says nothing about geohots PS3 jailbreak being legal.


That's not the ruling you know... that's the last exemption run anwyay, it's not related to the Iphone suite.

Here is it explained.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31021_3-20011702-260.html

Aside from which, as for the PS3 jailbreaking to be legal or not, hasn't been ruled on yet.  However assuming things go to normal precedent it will be ruled legal.

Right now it's a big pile of "who knows, probably."

It'd be like if somebody Jailbreaked their cars firmware to run a free GPS system that works for cellphones.  Would it be legal?  Dunno, probably.

 

Now I know what your saying "User agreements!"

A) The Useragreement for this happens when you sign up for a PSN account... which Geohot never did.

B) User agreements themselves are seen as largely unenforceable outside of voiding someones warranty.  Hence why even if you said Sony a clearly modified chipped PS2, all they would do is send it back at your expense.  EULA's have pretty mcuh never been argued in courts because well... companies pretty much accept they would LOSE.  EULA's are more reasons to let people void warranties and try and scare people.



Kasz216 said:


A) Has been established he can't be sued for damages.

B) There were a lot of problems with the PSN before this?   The credit card hacks existed well before he did anything.

C) There are STILL a lot less problems with PSN then there are 360 and PC in which you almost never run into a hacker anyway.  So you are essentially argueing that he "ruined PSN" by making it less "safe" from hacking, yet still MORE safe then 360, Wii, PC and basically every other system because this requires you to download a special firmware, that sony coudd detect, and then IP ban you... within a day if they wanted because they are sending every piece of information they can to corporate headquarters.

D) Ok, now i'm sure you don't have the frame of refrence for this arguement and just want to be right, because you want to be right.


A) where has it been established?

B) i can only think of 1 time (other than other peoples follies) and that was in 2008.

C) So the psn not encrypting credit cards is still safer than 360 and pc so why are we discusing this? also can you not ip spoof so they wont ban you?

D) can you please stop saying that i am just tired of hearing the same drivel about he is some personification of freedom and has not done anything wrong.

 



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Kasz216 said:


1) That's, not a crime..?  Like I said, it wasn't carelessness or negligence on his part.  It was Sony's fault they locked things in the same place.  He can't be held account for Sony's decision to do so.

2) You replied to this, after I mentioned how it actually probably would be ruled not illegal under the DMCA...  and after you had acknowledged this to be the case without trying to argue otherwise?  I'm starting to think you don't have a general understanding of the topic at hand to make an arguement and instead are just throwing up things you hope are right, because you want to be right.

1)You are not the court system so you dont know if he was negligent or careless until they rule you and i can speculate  till the cows come home. He made it so it was difficult to pirate games but did he know that people could make it so they could? Of course did, he doesnt prolly care he hates sony. Would there have been piracy like this if he hadnt have release this? No so it puts it squarely on his shoulders.

2) I have made countless posts thats it my opinion that is is illegal before you even came into this thread so where is it my fault that you didnt read them? Im starting to think that this is getting silly.





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       Coffee is for closers!

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JamaicameCRAZY said:
Kasz216 said:
JamaicameCRAZY said:
Kasz216 said:
JamaicameCRAZY said:
Kasz216 said:
JamaicameCRAZY said:
Kasz216 said:
funkateer said:

Regarding the geohot thing, what the article fails to acknowledge is that Sony is the 'Maker' here, not geohot.

Whether or not there is any legal ground for Sony is imho a bit irrelevant (who thinks the law is always fair anyway?). Even if Sony's agressive stance is smart or not is besides the point.

I feel they have the right to protect their investment, which geohot and the likes are jeopardizing. Sony has been selling their platform under cost price so that customers can afford the thing, meaning to recoup the investment by software. This investment created jobs for god knows how many people developing the platform & the content. That is why the PS3 is a closed platform. Personally I think that's a pretty compelling reason.

If geohot seriously thinks his 'efforts to avoid piracy' are enough than he's really one arrogant (or perhaps just thick and ignorant) kid. Who says his 'efforts' can not be worked around? Did he avoid a PS emulator to be ported? (Sony still sells PS1 games, mind you, so he has actually still opened the door to piracy in a way)

He distributed tools to break security, and that directly jeopardizes the bread and butter of a lot of people. So geohot, is your little hobby worth that? The industry is under enough pressure as it is, so I'd rather see him excercise his skills in a more meaningful way.

My 2cts


Wouldn't that have been solved by... Sony not selling the PS3 for a loss.  You are basically saying, Sony should be protected for making poor buisness decisions, and because tangentially something he did was used in a wrong way.

 

That's like saying gunmakers should be forced to store owners money because the guns they make may of been used to rob stores that don't have robbery insurance.

Laws shouldn't be crafted around poor buisness decisions.


What would really solve it is.. Geo not trying to break security which would allow him and others access to information conected to peoples wallets/ pirate games/ steal shit. Which is illegal.


He... didn't do that?  He broke the secuirty that prevented a lot of other stuff... and then people went from their and broke into that stuff.

Well except the Credit Card shit... that's been around forever... because Sony doesn't encrypt the information it sends out... because... I have no idea why.

Regardless, it's been consistantly ruled that when a company ties the "legal" protections with the "illegal ones" they lose any right to litigation because they, not the hackers made it so that one had to be breached, to breach the other.

Unless there is a surprise ruling... they should lose on that count.

which is Negligence/Carelessness.


No, I think Sony did it on purpose personally.  I wouldn't say they were being negligent or careless so much as they didn't care because they thought they had an unbeatable sysetm.

Though the not encrypting peoples credit card numbers was negligent and careless.  They could get sued for that.

Wow, very childish.

 How many problems were there with the psn before he came along? How many are there now? The Psn and ps3 were fine before him from the inside sure its not a good system but for what 4years its been fine. He was very negligent and careless which is while he'll likely get sued for damages.


A) Has been established he can't be sued for damages.

B) There were a lot of problems with the PSN before this?   The credit card hacks existed well before he did anything.

C) There are STILL a lot less problems with PSN then there are 360 and PC in which you almost never run into a hacker anyway.  So you are essentially argueing that he "ruined PSN" by making it less "safe" from hacking, yet still MORE safe then 360, Wii, PC and basically every other system because this requires you to download a special firmware, that sony coudd detect, and then IP ban you... within a day if they wanted because they are sending every piece of information they can to corporate headquarters.

D) Ok, now i'm sure you don't have the frame of refrence for this arguement and just want to be right, because you want to be right.


A) where has it been established?

B) i can only think of 1 time (other than other peoples follies) and that was in 2008.

C) So the psn not encrypting credit cards is still safer than 360 and pc so why are we discusing this? also can you not ip spoof so they wont ban you?

D) can you please stop saying that i am just tired of hearing the same drivel about he is some personification of freedom and has not done anything wrong.

 

A) Everywhere?  Ever wonder why NOBODY has ever suggested he would be sued for negligence outside of you?  You can't be sued for negligence for something someone else does.  It's like saying you could sue gun companies because you knew someone somewhere was going to shoot someone with one of your guns. 

B) What do you mean "other then peoples follies."  You can't have your info stolen unless you download specific malware.  It's no different then, then it is now, you will only lose your credit card number if you download the custom firmware.

C)  Because you seem to think it's a problem?  If you don't think it's a problem, what are you trying to argue?  Besides, Sony isn't even sueing about this.

Though Sony could be sued specifically for negligence for not encrypting it in case someone broke into their system, because they are the ones sending the information to themselves.I

D)  You're proving my point, you are saying ti because "your tired about the same drivel" you aren't actually trying to argue anything except trying everything you can to make him out to be the bad guy.  You don't actually have the frame of refrence or knowledge base to have an intellegent conversation about it and are largely saying stuff like "he can be sued for negligence" even though... he really really can't.

He hasn't done anything wrong, was their negative aspects to what he did?  Sure.  There are negative aspects to EVERYTHING people do, for example when we send clothes to Africa we are destroying their local textile industry.  



Rafux said:

Where is the homebrew? where is the Dreamcast emulator? Wii emulator? N64 emulator? none. All I have seen is file managers, back ups and ftp which are very usefull for piracy .

Not only this, but we already had emulators and other homebrew running on the Linux Sony ALLOWED us to have in the first place.  Did MS or Nintendo let us run Linux and homebrew apps/games on their systems?  Hell no.  Where the heck were you "homebrew defenders" then?  Probaly not caring.  But now that this is a way to slam Sony, heck yea, got to jump on that bandwagon.  Truth is, if Geohot wasn't such a jerkwad and attention whore and used his brain for making the existing YDL better, we wouldn't be having this convo.  And I still have freaking Linux on my PS3.

@ OP

I do agree with some of the things this article puts forward.  Mostly the Aibo dog hobbyists.  Though, Sony eventually agreed, as well, and apologized to the original hacker.  The GNU violation and BMG vulnerability are also dick moves.  Of course, anyone could pull up a list of dick moves made by MS and their various GNU violations throughout the years.  Then again, it is attack Sony day.

Now the remaining stuff is just ridiculous, and Sony just responded to protect their interests.  Now imagine you design and manufacture a console to enter the gaming market.  Do you think it should be ok for someone else to just come along and make an emulator that they sell, taking away from your revenue, that allows people to play games intended for your system on your competition's system?  If you said yea, I pray you never try to run a business.  The only reason we have the emulators we have today is because the HW patents on them expired, which is why Sony doesn't give a shit about suing the makers of ePSXe or other PS1 emulators today. 

What company doesn't use region coding?  O wait, everyone does this gen, but Sony.  Of course, let's just ignore what Sony does now, and attack them for what they and EVERYONE did two previous gens ago.  Hell, let's bitch at the DVD & DVD players we have now, cause they still region code them.  And let's be honest, if playing import PS1 games was that important to you, you would have sprung for an import PS1.  The main reason people really used mod cheaps was to play burnt games.

Now for my last point, removing Other OS and those who only jailbreak their PS3 ONLY for homebrew games (yea, sure).  The sad thing is Sony GAVE people so much freedom with their new system, but it wasn't good enough for some.  People didn't like region coding, Sony made Blu-rays region-free.  You wanted Linux to run homebrew and emulators, Sony let you install it on the PS3.  This point negates anyone with excuses for why what Geohot did was acceptable.  WE ALREADY HAD ANYTHING IS HACK COULD HAVE OFFERED.  This makes his offering of an NES emulator laughable.  He is the reason Otherr OS was taken away, not Sony. 

Oh wait, I guess we had it all except piracy and hacks online.  Thank God for Geohot.



Kasz216 said:
markers said:

I skimmed through and noticed this,

"George Hotz (GeoHot) isn’t just a random kid, he’s our future. He should be celebrated and considered a role model for anyone interested in science and technology."

Yes he is the future. But so am I. And so our my friends, siblings, and any other random kid you can find on the street. George Hotz should in no way be celebrated nor considered a role model of any sort. He has talents, that is for sure, but he should keep some of his practices to himself.

 

'You should read the next few paragraphs.  They explain why he should be celebrated.  Or maybe the couple before it.

If you weren't skimming it'd make much more sense.



Enlighten me because nothing that Hotz has done I would celebrate or consider a role model.



markers said:
Kasz216 said:
markers saide

I skimmed through and noticed this,

"George Hotz (GeoHot) isn’t just a random kid, he’s our future. He should be celebrated and considered a role model for anyone interested in science and technology."

Yes he is the future. But so am I. And so our my friends, siblings, and any other random kid you can find on the street. George Hotz should in no way be celebrated nor considered a role model of any sort. He has talents, that is for sure, but he should keep some of his practices to himself.

 

'You should read the next few paragraphs.  They explain why he should be celebrated.  Or maybe the couple before it.

If you weren't skimming it'd make much more sense.



Enlighten me because nothing that Hotz has done I would celebrate or consider a role model.


Once again, that's why you should read the whole article.  They mention a shitload of things he's done outside of jailbreaking, including being named one of the "Top 10 overachiveing people under 21" by PC World Magazine and winning a bunch of programming contests.  Invented a brain wave reader lots of stuff that people would/and have celebrated, and reasons to be a role model.  He's basically a super genius.

Though you know, reading the whole article will actually you know, let you know what the author is talking about and understand his point of view too, instead of not reading the whole thing because you want to cling to your beliefs rather then actually have a rationale conversation.

In general, the hackers that are really good at stuff, are nothing more then the next generation of people who will drive the industry forward... because people who build, also like to take things apart to see how things go together.



Kasz216 said:

A) Everywhere?  Ever wonder why NOBODY has ever suggested he would be sued for negligence outside of you?  You can't be sued for negligence for something someone else does.  It's like saying you could sue gun companies because you knew someone somewhere was going to shoot someone with one of your guns. 

B) What do you mean "other then peoples follies."  You can't have your info stolen unless you download specific malware.  It's no different then, then it is now, you will only lose your credit card number if you download the custom firmware.

C)  Because you seem to think it's a problem?  If you don't think it's a problem, what are you trying to argue?  Besides, Sony isn't even sueing about this.

Though Sony could be sued specifically for negligence for not encrypting it in case someone broke into their system, because they are the ones sending the information to themselves.I

D)  You're proving my point, you are saying ti because "your tired about the same drivel" you aren't actually trying to argue anything except trying everything you can to make him out to be the bad guy.  You don't actually have the frame of refrence or knowledge base to have an intellegent conversation about it and are largely saying stuff like "he can be sued for negligence" even though... he really really can't.

He hasn't done anything wrong, was their negative aspects to what he did?  Sure.  There are negative aspects to EVERYTHING people do, for example when we send clothes to Africa we are destroying their local textile industry.  

A) Maybe because no one has thought of it yet. Sony might not be sueing for it at this time however they could in the future. Also you and the other supporters keep saying he has done nothing wrong which is my whole reason and purpose for reply i dont really care about any other dynamics of this situation. Negligence (i also said carelessness)can be sued for so technically that makes it wrong. Also you can be sued for something someone else does its called remoteness and its under the umbrella of negligence one example. For instance,

The idea of legal causation is that if no one can foresee something bad happening, and therefore take care to avoid it, how could anyone be responsible? in Palsgraf v. Long Island Rail Road Co.[6] the judge decided that the defendant, a railway, was not liable for an injury suffered by a distant bystander. The plaintiff, Palsgraf, was hit by scales that fell on her as she waited on a train platform. The scales fell because of a far-away commotion. A train conductor had run to help a man into a departing train. The man was carrying a package as he jogged to jump in the train door. The package had fireworks in it. The conductor mishandled the passenger or his package, causing the package to fall. The fireworks slipped and exploded on the ground causing shockwaves to travel through the platform. As a consequence, the scales fell.[7] Because Palsgraf was hurt by the falling scales, she sued the train company who employed the conductor for negligence.[8]

The defendant train company argued it should not be liable as a matter of law, because despite the fact that they employed the employee, who was negligent, his negligence was too remote from the plaintiff's injury. On appeal, the majority of the court agreed, with four judges adopting the reasons, written by Judge Cardozo, that the defendant owed no duty of care to the plaintiff, because a duty was owed only to foreseeable plaintiffs. Three judges dissented, arguing, as written by Judge Andrews, that the defendant owed a duty to the plaintiff, regardless of foreseeability, because all men owe one another a duty not to act negligently.

i am sure there are more but i really dont need to show every case do i?

B)  Theres only one way to have your info stolen?

C) I do think it is a problem. However you say its some big deal and then later saying its still better than pc and 360 is a little flippy floppy.

D) Me being tired of hearing the same drivel means im making stuff up?? what, lol. The only thing i do is give factual info, im not goingto going to make someone look like a bad guy they can do thay themselves i dont need to do that for them. And the reason why i keep saying he is negligent is because he has been and he can be proved that and that would make him in the wrong, which is my whole point he is wrong. And as for the negitives they far outweight the positives. You can seperate the hackers from the homebrewers and if the hackers are decent ones you apparently cant ban them.



EVERY GAMERS WORST NIGHTMARE...THE TANGLING CABLES MONSTER!

            

       Coffee is for closers!