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Forums - General - Islam is not bad, too many of you are ignorant of history.

Joelcool7 said:

I'm not trying to convert you or somehow belittle your faith. I'm just trying to wrap my head around how the Bible can be considered a Holy text in Islam when it refutes many of the Qur'an and Islam's teachings.

Also you claim to have read the Bible and seem very intelligent. I have read alot of the Qur'an and read the Bible cover to cover three times. I also read the books of apocrypha. But I haven't read as many supposed Holy texts as you have.

So consider my little topic derail over. But in all honesty extreme Islam out numbers moderate Islam and with moderates not moving to lead the others back on the right path extreme Islam will spread like a plague as it already has infected most of the Middle East and North Africa.

I consider extreme Islam a disease and moderate Muslim's are the only cure for this desease. But their aren't enough moderate Muslims fighting it. At this rate moderate Islam will disapear altogether and extreme Islam will rule!

The simple answer to your dilemma is that while Muslims acknowledge that the source of the bible is holy, we also know that the Bible is corrupted by man and is not entirely what God and the various prophets taught 100%. Frankly, the OT being older is actually more accurate than the NT as the NT is not the book Jesus had (figuratively) but is instead the memories of the Disciple's students at best.

So yeah, we'll never fully agree as the summation of what I researched leads me to believe that the Bible contains areas that are entirely made up by man. Since I do not know 100% which parts are and which parts are not, I choose to go with what makes the most sense in the larger picture of all of what God has preached and in that Jesus being a god does not compute as well as the stories represented in the Qur'an match up far better logically and especially with the teachings of other prophets.

I disagree that extremist out number the moderates. I believe its more like the extremist are just those in power. Once that power shifts (hopefully the very beginning is happening now), Islam will return to its far more respectable self. There needs to be a push for not only democracy in this area of the world, but also higher education levels for everyone, especially women.



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Booh! said:
superchunk said:
 

1. That isn't Jesus speaking.

2. Read my post above about this verse.

3. Yep, picked Ethiopians incorrectly. But, a quick search for nontrinitarian christians will reveal several others. Wikipedia page has a nice list.

4. If Romans did change important dates like these, what else did they change?

5. Of course there are differing view points. If everyone believed what I believe there would be no X360.

1) It doesn't matter.

2) I read it.

3) Yes and the oldest of them was founded in 1830.

4) The birthday of Jesus is unknown, and no, it isn't important if He was born on the 25th of Dec. or 6th of Jan. None was ever excommunicated for saying that.

5) This was the only argument on topic of the whole derailment of this thread. So I explain it better: if Grand Mufti "A" says "bombing western buildings is wrong", but Grand Mufti "B" says "bombing western buildings is just", a follower of "B" can bomb as he wish and, what's more important, he's a good muslim for both "A" and "B", because none of them is more authoritarian than the other (this is valid for sunni, while shi'a and other Islamic sects differ). This is radically different from religions with a determined central authority that dictates what's good and what's bad.

1) it does as that's the source.

2) awesome.

3) I was merely pointing out modern versions. There are plenty that existed since day one.

4) He wasn't born in January either. But, you're right its not important if you accept that you don't care what the Roman's changed in the religion you believe in.

5) You're right, Islam has no central religious authority. However, in modern practice that is not true as the Mullahs and Imams force religious extremism upon everyone and are as such no different than the Pope and his priests during the dark ages.

What's good or bad, in Islam is supposed to be based on daily worship and reading of the Qur'an... not what one man thinks is right and wrong. That central authority creates issues far more than in solves as the masses get lazy and only accept his viewpiont regardless if its based on the Qur'an or not. Then that individual gains all the power and you eventually get religious dictatorial rule.

This lack of central priesthood is why Islam took 1200 years to become extremist and violent. Hopefully, the current backlash against these dictatorships and the promotion of democracy and some vital freedoms will begin to undo this travesty against Islam and its Qur'an.



superchunk said:
Booh! said:
superchunk said:
 

1. That isn't Jesus speaking.

2. Read my post above about this verse.

3. Yep, picked Ethiopians incorrectly. But, a quick search for nontrinitarian christians will reveal several others. Wikipedia page has a nice list.

4. If Romans did change important dates like these, what else did they change?

5. Of course there are differing view points. If everyone believed what I believe there would be no X360.

1) It doesn't matter.

2) I read it.

3) Yes and the oldest of them was founded in 1830.

4) The birthday of Jesus is unknown, and no, it isn't important if He was born on the 25th of Dec. or 6th of Jan. None was ever excommunicated for saying that.

5) This was the only argument on topic of the whole derailment of this thread. So I explain it better: if Grand Mufti "A" says "bombing western buildings is wrong", but Grand Mufti "B" says "bombing western buildings is just", a follower of "B" can bomb as he wish and, what's more important, he's a good muslim for both "A" and "B", because none of them is more authoritarian than the other (this is valid for sunni, while shi'a and other Islamic sects differ). This is radically different from religions with a determined central authority that dictates what's good and what's bad.

1) it does as that's the source.

2) awesome.

3) I was merely pointing out modern versions. There are plenty that existed since day one.

4) He wasn't born in January either. But, you're right its not important if you accept that you don't care what the Roman's changed in the religion you believe in.

5) You're right, Islam has no central religious authority. However, in modern practice that is not true as the Mullahs and Imams force religious extremism upon everyone and are as such no different than the Pope and his priests during the dark ages.

What's good or bad, in Islam is supposed to be based on daily worship and reading of the Qur'an... not what one man thinks is right and wrong. That central authority creates issues far more than in solves as the masses get lazy and only accept his viewpiont regardless if its based on the Qur'an or not. Then that individual gains all the power and you eventually get religious dictatorial rule.

This lack of central priesthood is why Islam took 1200 years to become extremist and violent. Hopefully, the current backlash against these dictatorships and the promotion of democracy and some vital freedoms will begin to undo this travesty against Islam and its Qur'an.

This is arguable at best.

As for the christian doctrine, I know that it was heavily influenced by Roman and Greek philosophy and I'm satisfied with it. After all, it all could be designed from the start

In facts, an italian communist and homosexual intellectual said "I know that inside me two thousands years of Christianity live on": that's it, Christianity, through the doctrine of the Church, shaped Europe and all the western world. That's not a lesser achievement.

To explain better this concept take a look at communist China: polygamy is forbidden in Communist China, while it was allowed before over there. That's because communist thought enforces monogamy and that's because communist thought was born in strictly monogamy Europe, which was strictly "monogamized" by the Church during the middle ages (germanic and slavic "barbars" were all polygamist), which was influenced by the social laws of the Romans, who in turn were the only monogamist people I'm aware of, surely the only relevant monogamist people before modern Europe arose.



Islam has been coexisting with the Chinese peacefully for thousands of years in China's 5000 years history.



ArcticGabe said:

Islam has been coexisting with the Chinese peacefully for thousands of years in China's 5000 years history.

I'm pretty sure Islam isn't thousands of years old.

The fact that Chinese Muslims have, until recently, been completely isolated from the outside world and basically indistinguishible from Chinese Jews may have a lot to do with it.



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buglebum said:

Only read OP to be fair.

 

But it's startlingly obvious that the whole post is flawed because christianity of TODAY doesn't do any of those things, and hasn't done for hundreds of years and it doesn't look likely it ever will again.

 

Islam on the other hand...*ahem*.

^ This, Christianity (which BTW is a horrible generalization since there are many sects whith very different beliefs) was full of corruption, and misguided beliefs witch really didn't lign up with the Bible's teachings when the cruisades happened, Islam on the other hand, is NOT a peaceful religion, read the Quaran, I mean actually read it, Then take what you see there, and add to it Sharia law, I'm sorry but killing "infidels" and stoning women who adulterate just doesn't seem all that peaceful to me.

 

BTW, two fun facts for you,

Muslims are "allowed" to lie if they do not have the upper hand in a religious debate.

In the Quaran there is a "verse" dictating that commandments which are contradictory should always default to the one in the latter part of the book.



"with great power, comes great responsibility."

badgenome said:
ArcticGabe said:

Islam has been coexisting with the Chinese peacefully for thousands of years in China's 5000 years history.

I'm pretty sure Islam isn't thousands of years old.

The fact that Chinese Muslims have, until recently, been completely isolated from the outside world and basically indistinguishible from Chinese Jews may have a lot to do with it.

? I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but there are Chinese Muslims that have been there for quite some time, though more of them are the Uighurs, relatives of the Mongols and Turks, that have been rather well integrated (though in the 80's they went violent as well. Possibly justified by the violence of the anticommunist Mujehadin working not too far away)



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

badgenome said:
ArcticGabe said:

Islam has been coexisting with the Chinese peacefully for thousands of years in China's 5000 years history.

I'm pretty sure Islam isn't thousands of years old.

The fact that Chinese Muslims have, until recently, been completely isolated from the outside world and basically indistinguishible from Chinese Jews may have a lot to do with it.


The fact is China never oppressed islam like the western countries did.



Mr Khan said:
badgenome said:
ArcticGabe said:

Islam has been coexisting with the Chinese peacefully for thousands of years in China's 5000 years history.

I'm pretty sure Islam isn't thousands of years old.

The fact that Chinese Muslims have, until recently, been completely isolated from the outside world and basically indistinguishible from Chinese Jews may have a lot to do with it.

? I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but there are Chinese Muslims that have been there for quite some time, though more of them are the Uighurs, relatives of the Mongols and Turks, that have been rather well integrated (though in the 80's they went violent as well. Possibly justified by the violence of the anticommunist Mujehadin working not too far away)

 

Uighurs and Hui people, whom are direct descendants of Silk road travelers (Arabs, Persian,etc). Hui people and Han people got along really well throughout the history of China.



I will not forget the atrocities of islam, christianity, nor any other religion... Fuck even buddhists have wars. But the thing is, there's a beauitiful message left by GodEL on earth and all religions are trying to put together his grand puzzle... Other wise known as leaving the MATRIX! the RED PILL!