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Forums - Sony - Won't the NGP cost too much?

Zlejedi said:
Crazymann said:
Zlejedi said:
Crazymann said:
kitler53 said:

A) just because you have power doesn't mean you have to use it.  3D dot game hero is a great example of a game for the ps3 developed with a low budget so that only a 100 thousand or so is profitable for them

B) apparently it is easy to port back and forth between ps3 and npg, and then npg and android.  i know lots of people like to look at single platform sales but that doesn't mean anything to a publisher. 

C) wii level of graphics look bad to me -- develop all the games you want for that but i'm not interested.

It must be sad to be so constricted by graphics... so consumed by the need for eye candy that you would discard potentially great experiences untouched.

I routinely play old games on my NES, SNES and Genesis and find them to be just as fun now as ever (perhaps moreso).  And, if you would say that those are 2D and they age better, I also recently replayed (and beat) MGS on the PS1.

Thank goodness that your attitude is not the prevailing one.

I don't know why but my tolerance for bad graphics is much higher for 5-10 euro PS1 classics/PS2 second hand copies played on a 150 euro psp/70 euro ps2 (second hand) than in case of 40-50 euro games for 225-250 euro Wii/3DS.

Suprising isn't it ?

Nice attempt at witicism, but cost was never brought up in this arguement, so this is nothing but a red herring (look it up).  I could just as easily say...

"I don't know why but my tolerance for boring, barely evolutionary upgrades on the same games I've played for years on older systems is much higher for 5-10 euro PS1 classics/PS2 second hand copies played on a 150 euro psp/70 euro ps2 (second hand) or 40-50 euro games for 225-250 euro Wii/3DS than in the case of 60-80 euro games on a PS3."

That statement would be equally pointless, as this was a discussion of graphic fidelity.  So I'm gonna have to ask you to try again, and do better next time/

Surprising isn't it?

Your argument could almost be belived if half of the best sellers on Wii/DS weren't slightly upgraded versions of nintendo classics.

What!  That isn't my argument.  My arguement is that graphics alone do not make the game - irrespective of price.  The statement I made in that last post was intentionally obsurd.  It doesn't not reflect truth any more than the statement you made about price having an affect on absolute graphic quality.

Let me put it in other terms...

If I buy a $5 game and it has crappy graphics, I can say, "oh well it's a budget game".  I believe that you and I agree on that.  However, that doesn't make the graphics any better, nor does it make the game (potentially) any less fun. 

Or how about this...

When Duke Nukem Forever is released, it will most likely get blasted by graphics whores for having "OMG, 5 year old grafix, suxxors."  Well, if by chance, DNF does resist the "Daikatana Syndrome" and happen to be a good playing game, then it'll be a good game anyway - for what it DOES offer.

In short, I have no problem with the NGP or the 3DS, but there will be plenty of great games on 3DS despite the less capable hardware.  People who dismiss it without even considering that fact are just as one-sided as people who hope for the NGP to fail.



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Zlejedi said:
Crazymann said:
Zlejedi said:
Crazymann said:
kitler53 said:

A) just because you have power doesn't mean you have to use it.  3D dot game hero is a great example of a game for the ps3 developed with a low budget so that only a 100 thousand or so is profitable for them

B) apparently it is easy to port back and forth between ps3 and npg, and then npg and android.  i know lots of people like to look at single platform sales but that doesn't mean anything to a publisher. 

C) wii level of graphics look bad to me -- develop all the games you want for that but i'm not interested.

It must be sad to be so constricted by graphics... so consumed by the need for eye candy that you would discard potentially great experiences untouched.

I routinely play old games on my NES, SNES and Genesis and find them to be just as fun now as ever (perhaps moreso).  And, if you would say that those are 2D and they age better, I also recently replayed (and beat) MGS on the PS1.

Thank goodness that your attitude is not the prevailing one.

I don't know why but my tolerance for bad graphics is much higher for 5-10 euro PS1 classics/PS2 second hand copies played on a 150 euro psp/70 euro ps2 (second hand) than in case of 40-50 euro games for 225-250 euro Wii/3DS.

Suprising isn't it ?

Nice attempt at witicism, but cost was never brought up in this arguement, so this is nothing but a red herring (look it up).  I could just as easily say...

"I don't know why but my tolerance for boring, barely evolutionary upgrades on the same games I've played for years on older systems is much higher for 5-10 euro PS1 classics/PS2 second hand copies played on a 150 euro psp/70 euro ps2 (second hand) or 40-50 euro games for 225-250 euro Wii/3DS than in the case of 60-80 euro games on a PS3."

That statement would be equally pointless, as this was a discussion of graphic fidelity.  So I'm gonna have to ask you to try again, and do better next time/

Surprising isn't it?

Your argument could almost be belived if half of the best sellers on Wii/DS weren't slightly upgraded versions of nintendo classics.

you know, i was going to come in here and defend myself but you pretty much said everything i would have.

seriously, why settle for last gen level of graphics/effort when i can have better?  i'm a consumer thank you very much -- all this BS about "saving the industry" and "cost to develop games" means nothing to me.  really, those are just excuses nintendo fans tell themselves to make them feel better about buying lower quality games. 



Crazymann said:
Zlejedi said:
Crazymann said:
Zlejedi said:
Crazymann said:
kitler53 said:

A) just because you have power doesn't mean you have to use it.  3D dot game hero is a great example of a game for the ps3 developed with a low budget so that only a 100 thousand or so is profitable for them

B) apparently it is easy to port back and forth between ps3 and npg, and then npg and android.  i know lots of people like to look at single platform sales but that doesn't mean anything to a publisher. 

C) wii level of graphics look bad to me -- develop all the games you want for that but i'm not interested.

It must be sad to be so constricted by graphics... so consumed by the need for eye candy that you would discard potentially great experiences untouched.

I routinely play old games on my NES, SNES and Genesis and find them to be just as fun now as ever (perhaps moreso).  And, if you would say that those are 2D and they age better, I also recently replayed (and beat) MGS on the PS1.

Thank goodness that your attitude is not the prevailing one.

I don't know why but my tolerance for bad graphics is much higher for 5-10 euro PS1 classics/PS2 second hand copies played on a 150 euro psp/70 euro ps2 (second hand) than in case of 40-50 euro games for 225-250 euro Wii/3DS.

Suprising isn't it ?

Nice attempt at witicism, but cost was never brought up in this arguement, so this is nothing but a red herring (look it up).  I could just as easily say...

"I don't know why but my tolerance for boring, barely evolutionary upgrades on the same games I've played for years on older systems is much higher for 5-10 euro PS1 classics/PS2 second hand copies played on a 150 euro psp/70 euro ps2 (second hand) or 40-50 euro games for 225-250 euro Wii/3DS than in the case of 60-80 euro games on a PS3."

That statement would be equally pointless, as this was a discussion of graphic fidelity.  So I'm gonna have to ask you to try again, and do better next time/

Surprising isn't it?

Your argument could almost be belived if half of the best sellers on Wii/DS weren't slightly upgraded versions of nintendo classics.

What!  That isn't my argument.  My arguement is that graphics alone do not make the game - irrespective of price.  The statement I made in that last post was intentionally obsurd.  It doesn't not reflect truth any more than the statement you made about price having an affect on absolute graphic quality.

Let me put it in other terms...

If I buy a $5 game and it has crappy graphics, I can say, "oh well it's a budget game".  I believe that you and I agree on that.  However, that doesn't make the graphics any better, nor does it make the game (potentially) any less fun. 

Or how about this...

When Duke Nukem Forever is released, it will most likely get blasted by graphics whores for having "OMG, 5 year old grafix, suxxors."  Well, if by chance, DNF does resist the "Daikatana Syndrome" and happen to be a good playing game, then it'll be a good game anyway - for what it DOES offer.

In short, I have no problem with the NGP or the 3DS, but there will be plenty of great games on 3DS despite the less capable hardware.  People who dismiss it without even considering that fact are just as one-sided as people who hope for the NGP to fail.

i get your point -- it's completly valid -- i shouldn't disregard a good game just because graphics aren't the best ever. 

i only have 1 issue with that  .... there are, i dunno, let's say 1000 games released every year.  i don't have time for all of those.  in fact, i don't even have time for all the awesome games released on a ps3 each year let alone time to give love to other systems.  owning a wiips360 was probably the dumbest thing i did this gen.  my wii only does netflix in the other room and my 360 has been unplugged since shortly after fable1 released.



kitler53 said:
Zlejedi said:
Crazymann said:
Zlejedi said:
Crazymann said:
kitler53 said:

A) just because you have power doesn't mean you have to use it.  3D dot game hero is a great example of a game for the ps3 developed with a low budget so that only a 100 thousand or so is profitable for them

B) apparently it is easy to port back and forth between ps3 and npg, and then npg and android.  i know lots of people like to look at single platform sales but that doesn't mean anything to a publisher. 

C) wii level of graphics look bad to me -- develop all the games you want for that but i'm not interested.

It must be sad to be so constricted by graphics... so consumed by the need for eye candy that you would discard potentially great experiences untouched.

I routinely play old games on my NES, SNES and Genesis and find them to be just as fun now as ever (perhaps moreso).  And, if you would say that those are 2D and they age better, I also recently replayed (and beat) MGS on the PS1.

Thank goodness that your attitude is not the prevailing one.

I don't know why but my tolerance for bad graphics is much higher for 5-10 euro PS1 classics/PS2 second hand copies played on a 150 euro psp/70 euro ps2 (second hand) than in case of 40-50 euro games for 225-250 euro Wii/3DS.

Suprising isn't it ?

Nice attempt at witicism, but cost was never brought up in this arguement, so this is nothing but a red herring (look it up).  I could just as easily say...

"I don't know why but my tolerance for boring, barely evolutionary upgrades on the same games I've played for years on older systems is much higher for 5-10 euro PS1 classics/PS2 second hand copies played on a 150 euro psp/70 euro ps2 (second hand) or 40-50 euro games for 225-250 euro Wii/3DS than in the case of 60-80 euro games on a PS3."

That statement would be equally pointless, as this was a discussion of graphic fidelity.  So I'm gonna have to ask you to try again, and do better next time/

Surprising isn't it?

Your argument could almost be belived if half of the best sellers on Wii/DS weren't slightly upgraded versions of nintendo classics.

you know, i was going to come in here and defend myself but you pretty much said everything i would have.

seriously, why settle for last gen level of graphics/effort when i can have better?  i'm a consumer thank you very much -- all this BS about "saving the industry" and "cost to develop games" means nothing to me.  really, those are just excuses nintendo fans tell themselves to make them feel better about buying lower quality games. 

You consider yourself "defended" by a red herring arguement that doesn't even address my point.  Nice!

I'm not concerned about cost of games on NGP being too high, etc. and (if you would bother to read my OTHER POSTS defending the NGP) then maybe you would know that.

My point was that old games and new games that were designed a low octane art-style or poly count are not necessarily bad.  I own as many PS3 games as Wii games, and I like them all.  Graphics alone do not = quality. 

Sadly, your blatantly biased statements about "buying lower quality games" based on graphics alone indicate that there is no reaching you.  So this discussion is over.

EDIT:  I read your new post.  Perhaps I was too judgemental with this post especially the bolded part.  My apologies.  Anyway, I still say that (last year) I've played Uncharted 2 and DKCR (for example) and I am really happy - as a gamer of many years - that I have both.



Crazymann said:
kitler53 said:
Zlejedi said:
Crazymann said:
Zlejedi said:
Crazymann said:
kitler53 said:

A) just because you have power doesn't mean you have to use it.  3D dot game hero is a great example of a game for the ps3 developed with a low budget so that only a 100 thousand or so is profitable for them

B) apparently it is easy to port back and forth between ps3 and npg, and then npg and android.  i know lots of people like to look at single platform sales but that doesn't mean anything to a publisher. 

C) wii level of graphics look bad to me -- develop all the games you want for that but i'm not interested.

It must be sad to be so constricted by graphics... so consumed by the need for eye candy that you would discard potentially great experiences untouched.

I routinely play old games on my NES, SNES and Genesis and find them to be just as fun now as ever (perhaps moreso).  And, if you would say that those are 2D and they age better, I also recently replayed (and beat) MGS on the PS1.

Thank goodness that your attitude is not the prevailing one.

I don't know why but my tolerance for bad graphics is much higher for 5-10 euro PS1 classics/PS2 second hand copies played on a 150 euro psp/70 euro ps2 (second hand) than in case of 40-50 euro games for 225-250 euro Wii/3DS.

Suprising isn't it ?

Nice attempt at witicism, but cost was never brought up in this arguement, so this is nothing but a red herring (look it up).  I could just as easily say...

"I don't know why but my tolerance for boring, barely evolutionary upgrades on the same games I've played for years on older systems is much higher for 5-10 euro PS1 classics/PS2 second hand copies played on a 150 euro psp/70 euro ps2 (second hand) or 40-50 euro games for 225-250 euro Wii/3DS than in the case of 60-80 euro games on a PS3."

That statement would be equally pointless, as this was a discussion of graphic fidelity.  So I'm gonna have to ask you to try again, and do better next time/

Surprising isn't it?

Your argument could almost be belived if half of the best sellers on Wii/DS weren't slightly upgraded versions of nintendo classics.

you know, i was going to come in here and defend myself but you pretty much said everything i would have.

seriously, why settle for last gen level of graphics/effort when i can have better?  i'm a consumer thank you very much -- all this BS about "saving the industry" and "cost to develop games" means nothing to me.  really, those are just excuses nintendo fans tell themselves to make them feel better about buying lower quality games. 

You consider yourself "defended" by a red herring arguement that doesn't even address my point.  Nice!

I'm not concerned about cost of games on NGP being too high, etc. and (if you would bother to read my OTHER POSTS defending the NGP) then maybe you would know that.

My point was that old games and new games that were designed a low octane art-style or poly count are not necessarily bad.  I own as many PS3 games as Wii games, and I like them all.  Graphics alone do not = quality. 

Sadly, your blatantly biased statements about "buying lower quality games" based on graphics alone indicate that there is no reaching you.  So this discussion is over.

EDIT:  I read your new post.  Perhaps I was too judgemental with this post especially the bolded part.  My apologies.  Anyway, I still say that (last year) I've played Uncharted 2 and DKCR (for example) and I am really happy - as a gamer of many years - that I have both.

which really comes down to people have different opinions, and that's okay. xD



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psrock said:

"NGP is a developer's dream – Sony is finally doing the things developers have been crying out for for years.

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-02-04-new-ngp-details-emerge-at-private-event

 

Someone can make a thread out this. 

Yeah it's a good article, I actually came on to post some choice quotes from the interview but ya beat me to it.  Seems like the NGP may actually be something devs want to develop for. 

Wipeout HD running exactly the same on the NGP sounded pretty awesome, and the 6-point multi-touch capability of the rear touch-pad is badass.



It'll be costly.

But PS3 has proven a high launch price isn't necessarily going to doom a product.



All hail the KING, Andrespetmonkey

Given the range of scale of titles for the NGP (anywhere from $2.99 minis to $40-50 console level games), development costs are not going to be an issue for the platform.

Obviously, not every developer is going to have the desire or the resources to spend 1-2 years developing a NGP title. At the lower end of things, it should be easy enough to accomplish in 6 months or less with the resources of a small studio.

The two things that stand to potentially hurt development efforts for the platform would be ease of development (which prevented many developers from making early games on the PS3) and rampant piracy (which arguably reduced the number of titles being released for the PSP).

The first has already been addressed, with several developers already going on record as to how developer friendly the platform is.

The second remains to be seen pending the effectiveness of security measures that have been taken with the platform.



HappySqurriel said:

It really depends on the developers ...

If you were to develop the same game for the NGP and the 3DS, the NGP would probably see between 50% and 300% higher development costs; primarily depending on the kind of game you're developing. With many "classic" handheld games, like puzzle games and 2D arcade games, there is some work associated with making higher quality graphics but it is not that dramatic; but (at the same time) if you're developing a big budget blockbuster similar to what you see on the HD consoles, the amount of work required to make the greater quantity of higher quality graphical assets could push the NGP version to be 4 times (or possibly greater) than a similar 3DS version.

 Can you please give us the source or link that says this from someone who actually knows anything about developement - as I've not read anything to suggest anything like that and infact read much to the contrary.

 Or is that just guesswork made up on what you 'think' happens in development? It's just I've seen you post alot about this despite the fact that there is absolutely nothing online about it. I'm not for one moment suggesting NGP developement is lower then 3DS or anything like that - just that alot of what your posting seems to have absolutely no reference at all and is entirely based on your own guesswork?

 

 

 From what I've read online regarding development costs is that PSP games average around $1m whereas PS2 games were averaging around $3m - $6m (Averages don't tell you alot though). But the point is handheld games will never reach the cost of it's console equivalent and the NGP won't get near touching PS3 dev costs (For a like-to-like game example). It's well positioned to appeal to any size developer - whether they make something on the scale of an MGS or Uncharted, or if it's just a mini's puzzle game. 



What's the point of next generation consoles if you don't have better technology?

There is none.

Graphics are and will always be important. The reason why people manage to go back to playing those old games is because they have already played them before. If they were new games, not many would touch them.