By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - Should People Take Justice Into Their Own Hands (partocular case)

 

Should People Take Justice Into Their Own Hands (partocular case)

Yes 48 57.83%
 
No 32 38.55%
 
Total:80
The_vagabond7 on 08 February 2011

It's absolutely a fact that he didn't get baptized until right before he died, but at this point it seems like a semantic argument. The fact that christianity was becoming more popular doesn't mean rome converted to christianity peacefully. The christians didn't form an army and storm any palaces, but they did their fair share of murderin' in order to get Rome to become the holy roman empire. Unless somebody wants to play the "no true scottsman" card, trying to figure out just how christian Constantine and his cronies were so they can be put on the appropriate team to fill out the violence score card is pendantic. Fact of the matter is, christianity was becoming popular peacefully, but it's rise to super power was still a violent one.



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

Around the Network
Kasz216 on 08 February 2011
The_vagabond7 said:

It's absolutely a fact that he didn't get baptized until right before he died, but at this point it seems like a semantic argument. The fact that christianity was becoming more popular doesn't mean rome converted to christianity peacefully. The christians didn't form an army and storm any palaces, but they did their fair share of murderin' in order to get Rome to become the holy roman empire. Unless somebody wants to play the "no true scottsman" card, trying to figure out just how christian Constantine and his cronies were so they can be put on the appropriate team to fill out the violence score card is pendantic. Fact of the matter is, christianity was becoming popular peacefully, but it's rise to super power was still a violent one.

A) You do know the Holy Roman Empire was a totally different thing right?

B) It's rise to power wasn't violent though.  It was only after it came to power that it was violent... and even then, it was only against  other Christians to my knowledge, until much later after Constantine's death.  When in the empire you were effected depended on who ruled you and when it happened.  Since the Roman Empire was split in 3 on Constantines death.  Constans outlawed some pagan rituals, but the other two were pretty "Free religion" as far as I know.  Well outside of branch christian religions they didn't agree with.  Which ended up being interesting because the eastern and western emprerors supported opposing branches.

Nobody was compelled or forced to join Christianity by Constantine.  Heck, quite the opposite, he forced  Christians to observe pagan holidays like the day of the sun.



The_vagabond7 on 08 February 2011

(a) yes of course, my apologies. It's been a while, I checked and it wasn't called that until several hundred years afterwards.

(b)I will concede that it's initial promulgation wasn't violent. But after it got large enough to get some official attention in the political arena with constantine it went through a very awkward and at times violent phase leading up to theodosius making it official. During this time it didn't force pagans or jews to join them through outright violent coercion, but constantine's sons (at least one of them...constantius constatious or something to that effect I think) did start passing laws making it significantly harder to be anything but christian. He closed pagan temples, banned pagan sacrifices, if a christian converted to judaism or paganism their property would be confiscated by the state, gave christians all sorts of special rights. He and Gratian were not exactly kind to the pagan side of rome. During christianity's awkward fourth century rise to power it didn't spread just by people knocking on their neighbor's door and telling them about the good news of god's kingdom, then leaving them with a magazine. The traditors, constantine and his sons, gratian and probably some others I'm forgetting did their fair share of "compelling" people to convert to christianity and fall in line with their brand of it preceding theodosius officially declaring rome a christian nation.

My objection is not that christians during this time were bloodthirsty and conquered rome through thumbscrews and torture chambers, but the idea that somehow their rise was a respectable and peaceful spreading of god's love and mercy that pizza hut seems to have the notion of. In truth it was politics as usual, and was a power grab like any other. There was violence when the christians felt it was necessary for their goals, their was discrimination through legislation when possible, and at times acts of outright robbery towards those that disagreed with the idea that Jesus was their savior. It wasn't a brutal conquest but some people need to take off the rose colored glasses and see that it wasn't a rise to power to be proud of and just got worse once they had power.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, I'll try to provide some references and check some things when I get a chance, but it's late and I've got work tomorrow. I'll check in when I get the chance.



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

Kasz216 on 09 February 2011
The_vagabond7 said:

(a) yes of course, my apologies. It's been a while, I checked and it wasn't called that until several hundred years afterwards.

(b)I will concede that it's initial promulgation wasn't violent. But after it got large enough to get some official attention in the political arena with constantine it went through a very awkward and at times violent phase leading up to theodosius making it official. During this time it didn't force pagans or jews to join them through outright violent coercion, but constantine's sons (at least one of them...constantius constatious or something to that effect I think) did start passing laws making it significantly harder to be anything but christian. He closed pagan temples, banned pagan sacrifices, if a christian converted to judaism or paganism their property would be confiscated by the state, gave christians all sorts of special rights. He and Gratian were not exactly kind to the pagan side of rome. During christianity's awkward fourth century rise to power it didn't spread just by people knocking on their neighbor's door and telling them about the good news of god's kingdom, then leaving them with a magazine. The traditors, constantine and his sons, gratian and probably some others I'm forgetting did their fair share of "compelling" people to convert to christianity and fall in line with their brand of it preceding theodosius officially declaring rome a christian nation.

My objection is not that christians during this time were bloodthirsty and conquered rome through thumbscrews and torture chambers, but the idea that somehow their rise was a respectable and peaceful spreading of god's love and mercy that pizza hut seems to have the notion of. In truth it was politics as usual, and was a power grab like any other. There was violence when the christians felt it was necessary for their goals, their was discrimination through legislation when possible, and at times acts of outright robbery towards those that disagreed with the idea that Jesus was their savior. It wasn't a brutal conquest but some people need to take off the rose colored glasses and see that it wasn't a rise to power to be proud of and just got worse once they had power.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, I'll try to provide some references and check some things when I get a chance, but it's late and I've got work tomorrow. I'll check in when I get the chance.


After Constantine it did get violent, but like I said, that was well after it had already spread peacefully, and even then it didn't get violent against anyone who wasn't a Christian until Gratian.

In truth, Christians actually ended up persecuted again first... due to the rise of Julian.  However it didn't work, because... just like before... Christianity actually thrived and grew stronger under persecution. 

Constans is the ruler you were looking for, and he ended up being overthrown. 



pizzahut451 on 09 February 2011
sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:


No, just because you see no value in any person's belief and you think switiching your deepest beliefs prayers and wishes are as simple as changing new shoes doesnt make it so. Why did he choose christianity when he could have choosen any of other hunderds of religions back than?  The fact that he choose Jesus Christ is even more compelling when you consider his own people crusified him and tortured him to death. YOU can cover your ears and say ''OH noesz, hes been brainwashed by those lying bastards, or he could have just picked the religion his own empire has been trying to whipe out for decades., but there is no way he actually believed in Jesus Christ'' BY HIS OWN WORDS, HE SAID he had a vision of Jesus Christ coming down from the skies in the battlefield embracing him and his men. You can believe in this or not, but these were HIS OWN words, he claimed this was the reason he choose Christianity /there is also the fact that his own mother was Christian) His vision of Christ on the evening before the battle at the Pons Milvius, with the message that if he would put a certain sign on the shields of his soldiers this would give him victory (in hoc signo vinces) is pretty convincing. Call this whatever you want, but that means he didnt chose Christianity by accident. He may wasnt a pure christian (he worshiped pagan Sun God), but these kind of stuff cant be ignored in his life.

As for '' without violence'' part, Christianity did spread trough Rome without violence. By the time of apostle Paul, there wre already christians in Rome, by the 2nd century they were under a leadership of a bishop.By the time, Constantine claimed the tile of an emperor, 10% of population in Rome was already christian. Its amazing that so mayn Roman people discriminated christians, and later on, most of them became one. Rome was pretty much already conquerd by Christianity while he sat on the throne as an emperor. When he later became christian, and saw the enormous violence-free growth of Christianity in his empire, he tried to twist it to fit his politics.

Constantine killed other orthodox christians which he tought were fake and put his own christian people in the leadership, he didnt go around killing non- christians in rome for believing in diffrent God, as you would like to believe.      

Pagans were killed for not converting, however it was not Constantine who did that (he didn't even make Christianity the dominat religion).

Anyways, you are aware that Kasz's post doesn't support your "vision" delusion, right?

Regardless, I'm not going to continue this argument, as there's not much point to it. Your ramblings won't change the fact that your religion isn't true, and that it has a violent and bloody past.

They were killed, but not beofre the corrupted Roman leadership used christianity and claimed it as official religion of Rome(by that time christianity already conquerd roman empire) for their own purposes. And Kazs post does prove that christianity did spread in rome without violence. And i didnt say it supports my ''vision'' I just agreed with his last paragraph and thought it was very well put. No one said christianity  wasnt spreaded without violence later on (although the link i provided does show that christianity conquerd parts of Europe violence-free)



Around the Network
sapphi_snake on 09 February 2011
pizzahut451 said:
sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:


No, just because you see no value in any person's belief and you think switiching your deepest beliefs prayers and wishes are as simple as changing new shoes doesnt make it so. Why did he choose christianity when he could have choosen any of other hunderds of religions back than?  The fact that he choose Jesus Christ is even more compelling when you consider his own people crusified him and tortured him to death. YOU can cover your ears and say ''OH noesz, hes been brainwashed by those lying bastards, or he could have just picked the religion his own empire has been trying to whipe out for decades., but there is no way he actually believed in Jesus Christ'' BY HIS OWN WORDS, HE SAID he had a vision of Jesus Christ coming down from the skies in the battlefield embracing him and his men. You can believe in this or not, but these were HIS OWN words, he claimed this was the reason he choose Christianity /there is also the fact that his own mother was Christian) His vision of Christ on the evening before the battle at the Pons Milvius, with the message that if he would put a certain sign on the shields of his soldiers this would give him victory (in hoc signo vinces) is pretty convincing. Call this whatever you want, but that means he didnt chose Christianity by accident. He may wasnt a pure christian (he worshiped pagan Sun God), but these kind of stuff cant be ignored in his life.

As for '' without violence'' part, Christianity did spread trough Rome without violence. By the time of apostle Paul, there wre already christians in Rome, by the 2nd century they were under a leadership of a bishop.By the time, Constantine claimed the tile of an emperor, 10% of population in Rome was already christian. Its amazing that so mayn Roman people discriminated christians, and later on, most of them became one. Rome was pretty much already conquerd by Christianity while he sat on the throne as an emperor. When he later became christian, and saw the enormous violence-free growth of Christianity in his empire, he tried to twist it to fit his politics.

Constantine killed other orthodox christians which he tought were fake and put his own christian people in the leadership, he didnt go around killing non- christians in rome for believing in diffrent God, as you would like to believe.      

Pagans were killed for not converting, however it was not Constantine who did that (he didn't even make Christianity the dominat religion).

Anyways, you are aware that Kasz's post doesn't support your "vision" delusion, right?

Regardless, I'm not going to continue this argument, as there's not much point to it. Your ramblings won't change the fact that your religion isn't true, and that it has a violent and bloody past.

They were killed, but not beofre the corrupted Roman leadership used christianity and claimed it as official religion of Rome(by that time christianity already conquerd roman empire) for their own purposes. And Kazs post does prove that christianity did spread in rome without violence. No one said that it wasnt spreaded without violence later on (although the link i provided does show that christianity conquerd Europe violence-free)

Christianity wouldve never gotten big if it hadnt gotten mixed up in politics. What I was saying is that your nonsense about Constantine having had a "vision" is kinda disporven by Kazs post. Christianity is just like any other religion: a bunch of lies that the masses eat up.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

pizzahut451 on 11 February 2011
sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:
sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:


No, just because you see no value in any person's belief and you think switiching your deepest beliefs prayers and wishes are as simple as changing new shoes doesnt make it so. Why did he choose christianity when he could have choosen any of other hunderds of religions back than?  The fact that he choose Jesus Christ is even more compelling when you consider his own people crusified him and tortured him to death. YOU can cover your ears and say ''OH noesz, hes been brainwashed by those lying bastards, or he could have just picked the religion his own empire has been trying to whipe out for decades., but there is no way he actually believed in Jesus Christ'' BY HIS OWN WORDS, HE SAID he had a vision of Jesus Christ coming down from the skies in the battlefield embracing him and his men. You can believe in this or not, but these were HIS OWN words, he claimed this was the reason he choose Christianity /there is also the fact that his own mother was Christian) His vision of Christ on the evening before the battle at the Pons Milvius, with the message that if he would put a certain sign on the shields of his soldiers this would give him victory (in hoc signo vinces) is pretty convincing. Call this whatever you want, but that means he didnt chose Christianity by accident. He may wasnt a pure christian (he worshiped pagan Sun God), but these kind of stuff cant be ignored in his life.

As for '' without violence'' part, Christianity did spread trough Rome without violence. By the time of apostle Paul, there wre already christians in Rome, by the 2nd century they were under a leadership of a bishop.By the time, Constantine claimed the tile of an emperor, 10% of population in Rome was already christian. Its amazing that so mayn Roman people discriminated christians, and later on, most of them became one. Rome was pretty much already conquerd by Christianity while he sat on the throne as an emperor. When he later became christian, and saw the enormous violence-free growth of Christianity in his empire, he tried to twist it to fit his politics.

Constantine killed other orthodox christians which he tought were fake and put his own christian people in the leadership, he didnt go around killing non- christians in rome for believing in diffrent God, as you would like to believe.      

Pagans were killed for not converting, however it was not Constantine who did that (he didn't even make Christianity the dominat religion).

Anyways, you are aware that Kasz's post doesn't support your "vision" delusion, right?

Regardless, I'm not going to continue this argument, as there's not much point to it. Your ramblings won't change the fact that your religion isn't true, and that it has a violent and bloody past.

They were killed, but not beofre the corrupted Roman leadership used christianity and claimed it as official religion of Rome(by that time christianity already conquerd roman empire) for their own purposes. And Kazs post does prove that christianity did spread in rome without violence. No one said that it wasnt spreaded without violence later on (although the link i provided does show that christianity conquerd Europe violence-free)

Christianity wouldve never gotten big if it hadnt gotten mixed up in politics. What I was saying is that your nonsense about Constantine having had a "vision" is kinda disporven by Kazs post. Christianity is just like any other religion: a bunch of lies that the masses eat up.


Christinaity would have become the major religion in Roman Empire end even Europe (look up my wikipedia link) sooner or later, its only its legalazation by Constantine that made it spread a lot faster. Like Kazs explained, Constantine saw the huge non-violent spreading of religion, he couldnt stop it, so he used (like many other corruped leaders unfortunately) it and twisted it, and christianity went off its peacfull spreading ways and got used for politics. But the fact remains, Christianity did conquer Rome and eastern Europe in non-violent ways.

As for underlined part, you can not possible prove christianity wrong, so its just another useless insult



sapphi_snake on 11 February 2011
pizzahut451 said:


Christinaity would have become the major religion in Roman Empire end even Europe (look up my wikipedia link) sooner or later, its only its legalazation by Constantine that made it spread a lot faster. Like Kazs explained, Constantine saw the huge non-violent spreading of religion, he couldnt stop it, so he used (like many other corruped leaders unfortunately) it and twisted it, and christianity went off its peacfull spreading ways and got used for politics. But the fact remains, Christianity did conquer Rome and eastern Europe in non-violent ways.

As for underlined part, you can not possible prove christianity wrong, so its just another useless insult

You cannot possibly prove Christianity right, and it's higly unlikely that it's right. It's jsut a lie, like all other religions. And I've had enough of it for one day, so I'll just leave it at that.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

pizzahut451 on 11 February 2011
sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:


Christinaity would have become the major religion in Roman Empire end even Europe (look up my wikipedia link) sooner or later, its only its legalazation by Constantine that made it spread a lot faster. Like Kazs explained, Constantine saw the huge non-violent spreading of religion, he couldnt stop it, so he used (like many other corruped leaders unfortunately) it and twisted it, and christianity went off its peacfull spreading ways and got used for politics. But the fact remains, Christianity did conquer Rome and eastern Europe in non-violent ways.

As for underlined part, you can not possible prove christianity wrong, so its just another useless insult

You cannot possibly prove Christianity right, and it's higly unlikely that it's right. It's jsut a lie, like all other religions. And I've had enough of it for one day, so I'll just leave it at that.

I can prove it to myself, but not to another skeptic person



sapphi_snake on 11 February 2011
pizzahut451 said:
sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:


Christinaity would have become the major religion in Roman Empire end even Europe (look up my wikipedia link) sooner or later, its only its legalazation by Constantine that made it spread a lot faster. Like Kazs explained, Constantine saw the huge non-violent spreading of religion, he couldnt stop it, so he used (like many other corruped leaders unfortunately) it and twisted it, and christianity went off its peacfull spreading ways and got used for politics. But the fact remains, Christianity did conquer Rome and eastern Europe in non-violent ways.

As for underlined part, you can not possible prove christianity wrong, so its just another useless insult

You cannot possibly prove Christianity right, and it's higly unlikely that it's right. It's jsut a lie, like all other religions. And I've had enough of it for one day, so I'll just leave it at that.

I can prove it to myself, but not to another skeptic person

The delusional can accept any delusion.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)