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Forums - General - Separation of Church and State? Screw That... Proselytism FTW!

Not the smartist thing to say, and I'd be yelling about it if he said it in a government building or the parliament. But in a Church, whilst it is distasteful and will probably mean he loses some votes and creates a media shitstorm, I don't think you can qualify this as a breach of the separation of church and state. He still is an idiot to say it when elected to office.



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FaRmLaNd said:

 He still is an idiot to say it when elected to office. Keep that bigotry to youself thankyou.

It's not bigetry its a religious belief. In the Bible it says all believers are brothers in Christ. All he was doing was saying that all Christians are his brothers and sisters in Christ. Which is religiously true its not bigotry. Its like if he was warden of a prison and stood up in the chapel and said Murder is a sin. Is that being a bigot towards Murderer's?

I don't get the issue over this. He was simply expressing his faith. He wasn't attacking anyone or saying anything illogical or offensive. He was simply stating his faith.



-JC7

"In God We Trust - In Games We Play " - Joel Reimer

 

Joelcool7 said:
FaRmLaNd said:

 He still is an idiot to say it when elected to office. Keep that bigotry to youself thankyou.

It's not bigetry its a religious belief.

A religious belief can be bigoted. Descriminating against gays because of religion is bigotry for example. Just because an ideology is a faith doesn't mean it isn't immune from criticism. My dictionary defines bigotry as "intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself". I would say what I wrote was too harsh, but hinting at in and out group views is generally not something to be proud of regarless of if its bigotry or not.

People have the right to practice their faiths aslong as it doesn't contradict secular law, and the freedom of speech to say in general what they want. But conversly people can criticise what a person says without actually wanting to silence them. The free exchange of ideas has to go both ways.



Joelcool7 said:

I don't get the issue over this. He was simply expressing his faith. He wasn't attacking anyone or saying anything illogical or offensive. He was simply stating his faith.

Whilst I also think the situation is overblown, and he was simply expressing his faith outside of his official duties, I think people largely have a problem with the last part of his statement when he said "You are not my brother or sister, but I want to be your brother".

It A. Discriminated instantly against all non Christians, and B. It showed an element of forcefulness in his statement, that he wants people to be Christian. I can potentially see how people can think of it as offensive.

I completely agree with you, this was said in a church to a group of likeminded Christians; whilst I think it was in poor taste I defend his right to say it completely. The statement, whilst in what many would deem poor taste, was said in an acceptable context. If he'd have said it in an official statement I too would be annoyed, but then again I think many Christians would also be annoyed too.



Joelcool7 said:

Man Sapphi dude you and the guy who wrote the article are blowing things way out of porportion.

There is something called religious freedom in the US and other democratic countries. If the man wants to express his faith he has every democratic right to do so. The US is a free country, he is not breaking seperation between church and state by stating his own religious beliefs. He did not over step his bounderies he simply stated all Christians are his brothers a fact based on the Bible and biblical beliefs. The statement was not imposing his beliefs on others it was stating fact and he did not indicate that his power would be used to convert people.

Everyone who believes in Christ is my brother and sister. Now if I were a politician and said this suddenly tons of people blow this out of purportion. Its innocent and my right given to me by the constitution and my great country whether it be Canada , US , U.K or which ever other democratic country I make the statement.

I get really pissed when people attack Christians in Government or so by stating they can't speak their beliefs due to seperation of church and state. Their is something called freedom of speech,freedom of expression , freedom of religion. Imposing your anti-Christian sentiment on them is not Democratic it is communist it is facist. Every man woman and child in a democratic country deserve to be able to practice their religious beliefs.

They should be able to speak their religious beliefs freely without ridacule and persecution. All he said was that all Christian's are his family, his comment about non-Christians not being his family and wanting them to be his family is perfectly appropriate.

It's like if you didn't like my sister and I said my sister was family and you weren't. Then you get upset because your like family. But you aren't and its a fact. All Christians are his brothers and sisters in Christ and non-Christians simply aren't. Just because you dislike this fact doesn't mean it isn't true.

No one's persecuting him. And no one's free from ridicule. What you need to understand is that freedom of speech doesn't mean that you can say everything you want, and other people have to like it. No one's free from ridicule, and if you decide to make a statement, people have the right to hold whatever opinion they want regarding that statement.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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Joelcool7 said:
FaRmLaNd said:

 He still is an idiot to say it when elected to office. Keep that bigotry to youself thankyou.

It's not bigetry its a religious belief. In the Bible it says all believers are brothers in Christ. All he was doing was saying that all Christians are his brothers and sisters in Christ. Which is religiously true its not bigotry. Its like if he was warden of a prison and stood up in the chapel and said Murder is a sin. Is that being a bigot towards Murderer's?

I don't get the issue over this. He was simply expressing his faith. He wasn't attacking anyone or saying anything illogical or offensive. He was simply stating his faith.

Something being a religious beleif doesn't make it acceptable. For example, a religion may require human sacrifice. Should such a practice be allowed, because it's a religous belief? And if murder weren't universally considered a negative thing, yes it would be considered bigotry (the same way sayin that beong gay is a sin is considered bigotry, or that having sex before marriage is a sin).

And he did attack non-Christians, and expressed his desire to force his religion on people.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
Joelcool7 said:

Man Sapphi dude you and the guy who wrote the article are blowing things way out of porportion.

There is something called religious freedom in the US and other democratic countries. If the man wants to express his faith he has every democratic right to do so. The US is a free country, he is not breaking seperation between church and state by stating his own religious beliefs. He did not over step his bounderies he simply stated all Christians are his brothers a fact based on the Bible and biblical beliefs. The statement was not imposing his beliefs on others it was stating fact and he did not indicate that his power would be used to convert people.

Everyone who believes in Christ is my brother and sister. Now if I were a politician and said this suddenly tons of people blow this out of purportion. Its innocent and my right given to me by the constitution and my great country whether it be Canada , US , U.K or which ever other democratic country I make the statement.

I get really pissed when people attack Christians in Government or so by stating they can't speak their beliefs due to seperation of church and state. Their is something called freedom of speech,freedom of expression , freedom of religion. Imposing your anti-Christian sentiment on them is not Democratic it is communist it is facist. Every man woman and child in a democratic country deserve to be able to practice their religious beliefs.

They should be able to speak their religious beliefs freely without ridacule and persecution. All he said was that all Christian's are his family, his comment about non-Christians not being his family and wanting them to be his family is perfectly appropriate.

It's like if you didn't like my sister and I said my sister was family and you weren't. Then you get upset because your like family. But you aren't and its a fact. All Christians are his brothers and sisters in Christ and non-Christians simply aren't. Just because you dislike this fact doesn't mean it isn't true.

No one's persecuting him. And no one's free from ridicule. What you need to understand is that freedom of speech doesn't mean that you can say everything you want, and other people have to like it. No one's free from ridicule, and if you decide to make a statement, people have the right to hold whatever opinion they want regarding that statement.

No.  You ARE persecuting him.   You said that what he did violated Church and State and he shouldn't have the right to say it.   You just agreed that was EXACTLY what you were saying a couple posts up.  That politicians shouldn't be able to express their religious views.

You directly said "That is exactly what i'm saying".

If your changing your position now because you realize your being bigoted that's one thing... but cop to it.



sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:
sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:
sapphi_snake said:
thranx said:
sapphi_snake said:

It's not the place of an elected official to proselytise. This isn't an issue of having an opinion, but one of forcing your opinion on others. His words are very telling of what he'll do in the future,


How is he forcing his views on others? What is he making those who don't believe do that is so wrong? What laws is he trying to change to benifit christians and hurt none christians? Care to share your time machine? I prefer to let  people make their errors before I call them out on it.

Fine. If I'll hear him make biased decisions I'll post a thread titled "I told you so".

Yet, you'd still be wrong.

Why?

You are suggesting someone should be forced from office based on a statement unrelated to his office.  Or you are suggesting that government officals shouldn't be able to express their religious beliefs.

You wish to either violate someones freedom of speech or freedom of religion AND freedom of speech.  

That's exactly what I'm saying. As a representative of the Government you shouldn't express any religious beliefs (or lack of such beliefs). The actions of Governemnt officials are reflected upon the whole Government. Another good reason is that you're bound to piss someone off, especially if you treat people from other religions with disrespect like this guy.

So he shouldnt have freedom of speech and religion because of his job?



@Joel. The part people are having a problem with is that his statement was essentially "I want all the non-Christian people of Alabama to convert to Christianity". It's certainly not appropriate.



United States national motto: ''In God we trust''. This sentence is also on american dollar bill.

The American decleration of Independece

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

Creator reffers to God 

The Constitution mentions "In the year of our Lord"

The Lord reffers to God as well.

The belief in God is in very roots of american country, so if you dont like ik, you shouldnt excpect the whole country to chnage their orgins because you find every single thing offendable and biased.

So this is really just another excuse for people to protest and blab on about something