Just calling it how it is not need to  be bummed all over.  I am actually bringing up valid points which no one has yet to solidly counter is all!!! Also, I hope the kettle stops calling the pot black since you should worry/look at your own faults instead of others!!!

Sure

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=121263&page=1#35

Pls educate yourself by reading the OP

"Degraded sales" when VGC says otherwise and anecdotal evidence are valid points? Seriously? Good job on proving my point: There's no reason to try and reason with you. You're right in the fact that it probably won't sell GT4 numbers, but have you seen how well GT5 held up in the third week?

As for pot and kettle: I am simply a gamer, and I play games, not the consoles. I give credit where it's due, and I call bullshit when I see it. I don't give a biased damn as to which company I'm dealing with. I've criticized Sony many times, I've criticized Nintendo, and I've criticized Microsoft many times. But at the same time, I've given credit to all three companies when it's due.

Can the same be said about you? Your history of bans indicates otherwise.

its a quality/hype flop as it was expected to be 90 (AAA). it isnt a commercial flop if thats what your referring to. 

not saying 84 is bad, but when 2 forzas come out this gen and both get 90 on metacritic in less tgime then it took GT5 to come out......you know PD messed up

Well, I do think GT5 was terribly mismanaged, that much is true. But "flop" is an extreme word. That is all.

I love PR bestest ever, ever than anything else ever speak.

Looks like the real HD console war is all about GT vs Forza franchise these days.  Who'd have thunk it?

From what the trailer shows looks like Forza 4 will be in line with GT5 for features (weather, etc) with some Kinect stuff as well - not clear whether that is outside driving a'la reviewing cars only or some form of control augmentation a'la headtracking or both.

Should be good.  Forza 3 was very good overall if a lesser sim than GT5 and arguably it's the more accessible title (as debated in detail in other threads so I won't expand here) with better online.

Really though, Forza is to GT what titles like Killzone 2 are to Halo - attempts to provide a similar title against the dominant franchise and make moving to the other console seem more attractive.

Such titles are normally constrained - no matter their scores or features - to trail the dominant brand in sales and market presence.

Look at Killzone sales for all the hype, or Forza sales (which required huge bundling to get to where they are and would clearly be much less without any bundling) vs their counterparts (and yes I know GT and Halo also get some bundling, but the evidence is clear they sell way more without it).

Yet... neither party could do without such titles, and that's why they get so much focus.  Sony pumps a ton of effort into FPS/Online because of MS success in that area and MS pumps a ton of effort into racing sims because of Sony success in that area.

I guess this is what market competition is all about in the end.  Trying to shore up your weakness vs your competitors strenghs.

I think the point was that there is a little too much driver assistance with joy ride.  He came in 3rd by NOT DOING ANYTHING... it's a little ridiculous.  My 4 year old niece actually beats me at joy ride all the time, and she does pretty much the exact same thing.  

all im saying the ps3-ps4 leap will be big and maybe not that expensive.

Exact point I am trying to make.  I didn't say GT5 was a failure (3M sales is 3M sales that is a success despite my feelings for Sony) if you read my post all I meant to prove is that GT5 dissapointed many of my known Sony rivals (even ones that pledge allegiance to SDF) and it shows in it's lower sales compared to GT4.  GT5 is a sales success but also has many dissapointments scoring less than Forza3 in gamerankings etc.  Plus with it's massive cost compared to Forza it's success over that franchise is a bit muted.  Don't get me wrong I like GT5 and it's not overhyped like some other games (GoW3) but after 6 years of development I thought it would blow my Forza3 by a large margin.  It did not; and it is what it is!!!

I think next gen all systems will be about the same in terms of hardware power (I think this generation both HD systems are equal and the Wii is the only hardware currently at a dissadvantage).  So it will come down to the driver...opps I mean software developer to get the most of the hardware.

Oh BTW I think next gen: M$ will be driving the Lambo, PS3 the Ferrari, and Nintendo will upgrade to the Audi R8 in relation to hardware power!!!