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Forums - General Discussion - Riots in the UK about tuition fee increases - an observation

Increasing tuition fees might bring in some money short term, but not long term. 

Less people get a good education because they can't afford it. Which means they don't get good jobs. As a result they have a lower income. And therefore tax income will be lower. So in the end no one benefits when tuition fees are being increased.



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Dinges said:

Increasing tuition fees might bring in some money in the short term, but not in the long term.

Less people get a good education because they can't afford it. Which means they don't get good jobs. As a result they have a lower income. And therefore tax income will be lower. So in the end no one benefits when tuition fees are being increased.


Education hasn't become less affordable, though. Everything is still paid for after you've finished Uni and you've gone in to the real world - you know, where for 99% of us, it doesn't matter how wealthy your parents were, anymore.



As a student at a UK institution myself I am against the fee rises as the increase to £6000 isnt actually an increase but the government shifting their contribution onto students, so its just another excuse to make cuts (for the record Im not against all cuts, just certain ones in particular). Also, I think the majority of protesters probably didnt realise that only students who enroll in 2012 will pay the increased fees, anyone who is already enrolled doesnt (like me).



kowenicki said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Dinges said:

Increasing tuition fees might bring in some money in the short term, but not in the long term.

Less people get a good education because they can't afford it. Which means they don't get good jobs. As a result they have a lower income. And therefore tax income will be lower. So in the end no one benefits when tuition fees are being increased.


Education hasn't become less affordable, though. Everything is still paid for after you've finished Uni and you've gone in to the real world - you know, where for 99% of us, it doesn't matter how wealthy your parents were, anymore.

Not to mention there simply arent enough jobs for graduates...  so his whole statement is nonsense.

I have graduates applying for office junior roles!

Why isn't it less affordable if you have pay more for the same?

I agree some studies aren't "profitable" and too many people attend those courses. But there are also fields where more people are needed.



jonop said:
PS3beats360 said:

Drop out of university and  do not bother doing anything with your life. Tories have tripled all university fees across the board.

They claim it is a measure to pay back the debt, reduce the deficit and increase the number of youth unemployment. Government bureaus can magically smooth the figures to cover up the increasing unemployment rates.

Unless you are an upper-middle class or closely related to the Royal family like most Tory MPs, you will not be able to afford to go to university.

Sign up on the welfare and just play your War Craft and console games or do whatever you want. 

People will be able to afford it because you don't have to start paying it back until you start earning £21000 a year.

You do realise how quickly the interest will build up? What if they decide to do a post-grad degree? Or can only get a job that amounts to slightly more than the £21,000?

Already, a lot of graduates on the current system come out with debts of >£15,000 and get jobs paying approx. £22K. Do you know how quickly the payments pay off that amount? They don't. They all go on interest payments. With £40-50,000 debt they'll be losing money on the starting salaries. Most students will be in debt for the majority (if not all) of their professional career.



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kowenicki said:
Scoobes said:

You do realise how quickly the interest will build up? What if they decide to do a post-grad degree? Or can only get a job that amounts to slightly more than the £21,000?

Already, a lot of graduates on the current system come out with debts of >£15,000 and get jobs paying approx. £22K. Do you know how quickly the payments pay off that amount? They don't. They all go on interest payments. With £40-50,000 debt they'll be losing money on the starting salaries. Most students will be in debt for the majority (if not all) of their professional career.

Utter garbage.

The interest rate is low and it is the cheapest unsecured debt anyone can get.  If they earn average professional earnings they will pay it off in a fraction of their professional lives.

There is so much mis-information being thrown around it is ridiculous and irresponsible... these are the main features as posted by the BBC.

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3013272.stm

In England and Northern Ireland, and for non-Welsh students in Wales, full-time undergraduates are liable to pay tuition fees of up to £3,225 a year (2009-10 rates).

The poorest students are eligible for non-repayable support at up to the same amount.

It works like this:

  • annual tuition fees - which were a flat rate of £1,175 - have, since September 2006, been varied from nothing up to a maximum of £3,000 (index linked)
  • families earning less than £25,000 are eligible for a grant of £2,906 a year, which tapers away to nought on family incomes of £50,020
  • universities charging maximum fees have to fund bursaries of at least £310 for the poorest students
  • unlike previous tuition fees, students no longer have to pay "up front" - while at university - unless they want to
  • instead fees are covered by a loan, repayable by graduates once their annual income passes £15,000
  • repayments are a minimum of 9% of all earnings over that figure per year

 

So you can see that the poorest students have little to pay.  This new sytem is actually BETTER for the poorest students.

 You only repay once you earn more than 15k at a rate of 9% of your earning over £15k for that year.... so if in one year you earn £20,000 you will have to repay £450 of that toward your student debt, 30k and you would have to pay off £1,350 for that year.

No can you tell me why someone should leave Uni with a debt of £50k? I'm curious how you get to this figure? especially given the sliding scale of fees in relation to parental earnings. 

 

@ underlined

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You say the interest is the lowest around (true), but that £450 you pay back is still less than the full year of interest in the current system let alone the greater debt students will now find themselves in. You literally end up paying interest for the first few years of of your professional career and that's with the current system. All my mate's have found this when we enter our first jobs. The first few years are spent on interest. 

And just because some universities will keep to only £3000, doesn't mean they all will. My university will almost certainly charge the full £9000 (in fact the provost would love to up it even further). What I also hate is the fact that it's always been done by parental income. A good number of parents are bastards (and won't pay, I say this from numerous fellow students experience) and fees of this amount will force those students to not get a full education.

As for £50K: Avg. course Tuition fee for my university will be £9000 X 3 yrs = £27,000

approx. £15,000 for 3 yrs living expenses loan = £43,000

For a 4 yr undergrad (e.g. undergrad MEng, MSc; the most common types of undergrad degree in my department) the cost of tuition fees alone at my uni will be £36K let alone the medical school (5 yrs).



Scoobes said:
jonop said:
PS3beats360 said:

Drop out of university and  do not bother doing anything with your life. Tories have tripled all university fees across the board.

They claim it is a measure to pay back the debt, reduce the deficit and increase the number of youth unemployment. Government bureaus can magically smooth the figures to cover up the increasing unemployment rates.

Unless you are an upper-middle class or closely related to the Royal family like most Tory MPs, you will not be able to afford to go to university.

Sign up on the welfare and just play your War Craft and console games or do whatever you want. 

People will be able to afford it because you don't have to start paying it back until you start earning £21000 a year.

You do realise how quickly the interest will build up? What if they decide to do a post-grad degree? Or can only get a job that amounts to slightly more than the £21,000?

Already, a lot of graduates on the current system come out with debts of >£15,000 and get jobs paying approx. £22K. Do you know how quickly the payments pay off that amount? They don't. They all go on interest payments. With £40-50,000 debt they'll be losing money on the starting salaries. Most students will be in debt for the majority (if not all) of their professional career.

The interest you pay is based on how much you earn. If you earn 21k you don't pay interest.

This is the full policy from the BBC

The government has pushed through plans to allow universities to charge up to £9,000 per year, raising the cap from its current level of £3,290. Universities wanting to charge more than £6,000 would have to undertake measures, such as offering bursaries, summer schools and outreach programmes, to encourage students from poorer backgrounds to apply.

The government would continue to loan students the money for fees. The threshold at which graduates have to start paying their loans back would be raised from £15,000 to £21,000. On 8 December, the goverment announced this threshold would rise annually with inflation - not just every five years, as had been planned.

Each month graduates would pay back 9% of their income above that threshold.

The subsidised interest rate at which the repayments are made - currently 1.5% - will be raised. Under a "progressive tapering" system, the interest rate will rise from 0 for incomes of £21,000, to 3% plus inflation (RPI) for incomes above £41,000.

If the debt is not cleared 30 years after graduation, it will be wiped out.



jonop said:
Scoobes said:

You do realise how quickly the interest will build up? What if they decide to do a post-grad degree? Or can only get a job that amounts to slightly more than the £21,000?

Already, a lot of graduates on the current system come out with debts of >£15,000 and get jobs paying approx. £22K. Do you know how quickly the payments pay off that amount? They don't. They all go on interest payments. With £40-50,000 debt they'll be losing money on the starting salaries. Most students will be in debt for the majority (if not all) of their professional career.

The interest you pay is based on how much you earn. If you earn 21k you don't pay interest.

You missed my point. If you earn a little over the 21K threshold, like £22-25K, all you'll do is pay off interest and that's with the current levels of debt.

With the debt levels increasing, the interest will also increase and graduates will struggle to pay off the debt due to interest, even when above the threshold.



Scoobes said:
jonop said:
Scoobes said:

You do realise how quickly the interest will build up? What if they decide to do a post-grad degree? Or can only get a job that amounts to slightly more than the £21,000?

Already, a lot of graduates on the current system come out with debts of >£15,000 and get jobs paying approx. £22K. Do you know how quickly the payments pay off that amount? They don't. They all go on interest payments. With £40-50,000 debt they'll be losing money on the starting salaries. Most students will be in debt for the majority (if not all) of their professional career.

The interest you pay is based on how much you earn. If you earn 21k you don't pay interest.

You missed my point. If you earn a little over the 21K threshold, like £22-25K, all you'll do is pay off interest and that's with the current levels of debt.

With the debt levels increasing, the interest will also increase and graduates will struggle to pay off the debt due to interest, even when above the threshold.

The interest for someone earning 22k would be tiny though wouldn't it? Tell me if Iv'e misunderstood it. I have not read into it that much.



jonop said:
Scoobes said:
jonop said:
PS3beats360 said:

Drop out of university and  do not bother doing anything with your life. Tories have tripled all university fees across the board.

They claim it is a measure to pay back the debt, reduce the deficit and increase the number of youth unemployment. Government bureaus can magically smooth the figures to cover up the increasing unemployment rates.

Unless you are an upper-middle class or closely related to the Royal family like most Tory MPs, you will not be able to afford to go to university.

Sign up on the welfare and just play your War Craft and console games or do whatever you want. 

People will be able to afford it because you don't have to start paying it back until you start earning £21000 a year.

You do realise how quickly the interest will build up? What if they decide to do a post-grad degree? Or can only get a job that amounts to slightly more than the £21,000?

Already, a lot of graduates on the current system come out with debts of >£15,000 and get jobs paying approx. £22K. Do you know how quickly the payments pay off that amount? They don't. They all go on interest payments. With £40-50,000 debt they'll be losing money on the starting salaries. Most students will be in debt for the majority (if not all) of their professional career.

The interest you pay is based on how much you earn. If you earn 21k you don't pay interest.

This is the full policy from the BBC

The government has pushed through plans to allow universities to charge up to £9,000 per year, raising the cap from its current level of £3,290. Universities wanting to charge more than £6,000 would have to undertake measures, such as offering bursaries, summer schools and outreach programmes, to encourage students from poorer backgrounds to apply.

The government would continue to loan students the money for fees. The threshold at which graduates have to start paying their loans back would be raised from £15,000 to £21,000. On 8 December, the goverment announced this threshold would rise annually with inflation - not just every five years, as had been planned.

Each month graduates would pay back 9% of their income above that threshold.

The subsidised interest rate at which the repayments are made - currently 1.5% - will be raised. Under a "progressive tapering" system, the interest rate will rise from 0 for incomes of £21,000, to 3% plus inflation (RPI) for incomes above £41,000.

If the debt is not cleared 30 years after graduation, it will be wiped out.

You edited your post, lol!

OK, fair enough. Now I'm just pissed at the interest my student loan has built up.