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Forums - General Discussion - Wikileaks + US diplomacy = biggest "diplomatic" storm ever incoming !

Kasz216 said:
NJ5 said:
Kasz216 said:
NJ5 said:
Kasz216 said:
NJ5 said:

So he turned himself in, and gets denied bail due to flight risk. That doesn't make any sense at all to me.


It probably has to do with the fact that he refused to give the court is address.  Like he literally refused to tell the court where he lived... and when he finally did give them a location it was in Australia.

Would you give bail to someone who refuses to tell you where he's staying?


Could be because of that, but I'm not discounting other reasons what with the amount of companies apparently being pressured to deny service to Wikileaks (how else to explain Amazon, Paypal, Mastercard, Visa, a Swiss bank that didn't freeze Nazi bank accounts etc pounding on Wikileaks?).

You aren't discarding other reasons... when he very specifically refused to tell the court where he was staying?  Can you think of any court that would be fine releasing someone on bail with zero knowledge as to where said accused criminal would be?

Also, "A swiss bank that idn't freeze nazi bank accounts" kinda ignores the fact that the EU just crushed swiss banks like 6  months ago due to EU tax codes.

I'm sure various US officals called up these places and said "We don't appreciate you doing buisness" with them.  I doubt they actually threatened them with any kind of legal action.  (Which there are none.)

More likely then not they were politicians who got money from the lobbiest and have called back to say "This is too far keep working with them and forget me supporting "insert legislation here"".   


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11945875

"PayPal says US advised it to stop Wikileaks payments"

Confirms my suspicion that the US gov pressured these companies to stop servicing Wikileaks.

A) So... you are conceding the point then that it would be stupid for a UK court to give bail to someone who refuses to tell the UK court where he would be?

B) How is that pressure?  Unless you can provide an actual threat of some sort, you are suggesting the US government shouldn't be able to ask people to not do things?   The state department said "Their actions are illegal in the US" and so, actions being illegal, paypal stopped service because they didn't want to support illegal actions.  Per Paypal policy.

A) Yes, but I hadn't read any article that indicated that was the reason. I just looked at some articles in google news and I found one saying he didn't give a "permanent address", which depending on what that means might not be really surprising since he doesn't live in the UK.

B) If Wikileaks's actions are illegal in the US (I got the impression you didn't agree with that earlier) they would just tell Paypal to shut them down, period. They wouldn't need to threaten or send an informative letter...



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

Around the Network

Wired -Why WikiLeaks Is Good for America

BBC -Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange

I consider them, good reads.

 

Edit: Mastercard website is down, lol



NJ5 said:
Kasz216 said:
NJ5 said:
Kasz216 said:
NJ5 said:
Kasz216 said:
NJ5 said:

So he turned himself in, and gets denied bail due to flight risk. That doesn't make any sense at all to me.


It probably has to do with the fact that he refused to give the court is address.  Like he literally refused to tell the court where he lived... and when he finally did give them a location it was in Australia.

Would you give bail to someone who refuses to tell you where he's staying?


Could be because of that, but I'm not discounting other reasons what with the amount of companies apparently being pressured to deny service to Wikileaks (how else to explain Amazon, Paypal, Mastercard, Visa, a Swiss bank that didn't freeze Nazi bank accounts etc pounding on Wikileaks?).

You aren't discarding other reasons... when he very specifically refused to tell the court where he was staying?  Can you think of any court that would be fine releasing someone on bail with zero knowledge as to where said accused criminal would be?

Also, "A swiss bank that idn't freeze nazi bank accounts" kinda ignores the fact that the EU just crushed swiss banks like 6  months ago due to EU tax codes.

I'm sure various US officals called up these places and said "We don't appreciate you doing buisness" with them.  I doubt they actually threatened them with any kind of legal action.  (Which there are none.)

More likely then not they were politicians who got money from the lobbiest and have called back to say "This is too far keep working with them and forget me supporting "insert legislation here"".   


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11945875

"PayPal says US advised it to stop Wikileaks payments"

Confirms my suspicion that the US gov pressured these companies to stop servicing Wikileaks.

A) So... you are conceding the point then that it would be stupid for a UK court to give bail to someone who refuses to tell the UK court where he would be?

B) How is that pressure?  Unless you can provide an actual threat of some sort, you are suggesting the US government shouldn't be able to ask people to not do things?   The state department said "Their actions are illegal in the US" and so, actions being illegal, paypal stopped service because they didn't want to support illegal actions.  Per Paypal policy.

A) Yes, but I hadn't read any article that indicated that was the reason. I just looked at some articles in google news and I found one saying he didn't give a "permanent address", which depending on what that means might not be really surprising since he doesn't live in the UK.

B) If Wikileaks's actions are illegal in the US (I got the impression you didn't agree with that earlier) they would just tell Paypal to shut them down, period. They wouldn't need to threaten or send an informative letter...

I don't particularly think their actions are illegal in the US.  Someone in the state department did though, told Paypal they thought it might be illegal and so paypal shut them down.

I don't see any pressure there.  Like you said, quite the opposite since they didn't just tell paypal to shut them down.  They gave paypal the option.



Kasz216 said:
Badassbab said:
Kasz216 said:
Badassbab said:
Kasz216 said:

As for the actual leaks... this one is pretty hilarious.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11917398

 

It makes the UK government sound like... I dunno. 

 

"we're still super special best friends right?"

 

This is my point though, about stuff that's funny... but there was no real reason to release it.

Hello Kaz. I can see your once again defending democracy hating elite centres of power from criticism.

As for this post, this is one of the many thousands of documents released. I don't think WikiLeaks cherry picked what and what not to release. The fact that the UK state funded BBC decided to focus on this particular story well you have to take it up with the BBC.

Oh and you and I have quite different tastes in humour.

Democracy hating elite centers of power?  Huh?  I'm not even sure who you are referring to here.



Also, actually that's my point.  Wikileaks SHOULD cherry pick what to release and what not to realse.

The majority of this stuff being released serves nothing excpet making private conversations inside governments impossible... which is needed for diplomacy.

 

I mean, imagine a sports league like the NBA trying to carry out trades with other teams if everything they said had to be public at all times.  You'd never get any deals done.

A certain level of secrecy before the deals are public is needed for negotiating... the only kind of closed diplomacy that is bad is deals that STAY secret.

It's irresponsible to just post any and all secret information you gain, even if that information is not a crime.

So what your saying is Wikileaks should do what the corporate media do and impose on itself self censorship? One of the problems with our Governments is there is far too much secrecy and the public are barely involved in the decision making processes of our elected representatives. The contempt for democracy with the latest leaks is very revealing. Wikileaks is a some ways a response to the piss poor job the mainstream business orientated media is doing.


Really?  Let me ask you a couple questions.

How well do you think polticians would be able to talk to each other if their aids weren't aloud to give honest opinions about the other leaders to each other before they met?

How do you think nuclear negotiations  to stop the Iran nuclear weapons program would go if the US government published transcripts of the entire event?

A program they aren't even publicly admitting exists.  Do you think there would be any negotiatons?  Or that we would just be forced to go to war?

Why was it that open negotions couldn't get a peace deal done in WW1, but they got the deal shortly after the deal went quiet?  (Because nobody wanted to give in publicly, privately each could explain away why the harsh terms weren't harsher.)


Private negotions is the ONLY way to get MOST diplomacy done.  What's the difference just so long as the entire result and deal is published?


Public negotions and full transparency would only lead to much more military action needed to be taken, and for negotions to become more partisan and more deadlocked as the people of both nations end up demanding exactly what was initally offered.

I don't really care about what aides say about other political leaders. In fact no one really should if we are being serious. The only people who would care are egotistical politicians and dictatorial monarchs. What I do care about is the blatent contempt for democracy the leaks reveal.

The nuclear negotiations weren't going well way before the current leaks at all so I'm not sure what your point is. And why should we go to war? If the public had a say with a fair free press at the helm with all the facts laid out on the table in front of them without the usual bullshit propaganda and double standards then I very much doubt anyone would want war. In fact even with all the anti Iran rhetoric the world wide public is still anti war.

I'm not sure what your point is about WW1 deals. A time when women couldn't vote in most countries and ethnic groups were treated as second class citizens. We've moved on from then, we are much more civilised and better informed. And for your information Germany was still very severly punished (which in some ways lead to WWII), Ottomon Empire was broken up and distributed amongst the victors (the effects of which are still being felt today) and the Austrian Hungary empire was no more. So not sure what concessions the victorious Allies made to the defeated Axis powers.

Unlike you I think people should have a say in what deals our elected representatives make. We are not all war mongerers, that's the politicians and the mainstream corporate media.



Badassbab said:
Kasz216 said:
Badassbab said:
Kasz216 said:
Badassbab said:
Kasz216 said:

As for the actual leaks... this one is pretty hilarious.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11917398

 

It makes the UK government sound like... I dunno. 

 

"we're still super special best friends right?"

 

This is my point though, about stuff that's funny... but there was no real reason to release it.

Hello Kaz. I can see your once again defending democracy hating elite centres of power from criticism.

As for this post, this is one of the many thousands of documents released. I don't think WikiLeaks cherry picked what and what not to release. The fact that the UK state funded BBC decided to focus on this particular story well you have to take it up with the BBC.

Oh and you and I have quite different tastes in humour.

Democracy hating elite centers of power?  Huh?  I'm not even sure who you are referring to here.



Also, actually that's my point.  Wikileaks SHOULD cherry pick what to release and what not to realse.

The majority of this stuff being released serves nothing excpet making private conversations inside governments impossible... which is needed for diplomacy.

 

I mean, imagine a sports league like the NBA trying to carry out trades with other teams if everything they said had to be public at all times.  You'd never get any deals done.

A certain level of secrecy before the deals are public is needed for negotiating... the only kind of closed diplomacy that is bad is deals that STAY secret.

It's irresponsible to just post any and all secret information you gain, even if that information is not a crime.

So what your saying is Wikileaks should do what the corporate media do and impose on itself self censorship? One of the problems with our Governments is there is far too much secrecy and the public are barely involved in the decision making processes of our elected representatives. The contempt for democracy with the latest leaks is very revealing. Wikileaks is a some ways a response to the piss poor job the mainstream business orientated media is doing.


Really?  Let me ask you a couple questions.

How well do you think polticians would be able to talk to each other if their aids weren't aloud to give honest opinions about the other leaders to each other before they met?

How do you think nuclear negotiations  to stop the Iran nuclear weapons program would go if the US government published transcripts of the entire event?

A program they aren't even publicly admitting exists.  Do you think there would be any negotiatons?  Or that we would just be forced to go to war?

Why was it that open negotions couldn't get a peace deal done in WW1, but they got the deal shortly after the deal went quiet?  (Because nobody wanted to give in publicly, privately each could explain away why the harsh terms weren't harsher.)


Private negotions is the ONLY way to get MOST diplomacy done.  What's the difference just so long as the entire result and deal is published?


Public negotions and full transparency would only lead to much more military action needed to be taken, and for negotions to become more partisan and more deadlocked as the people of both nations end up demanding exactly what was initally offered.

I don't really care about what aides say about other political leaders. In fact no one really should if we are being serious. The only people who would care are egotistical politicians and dictatorial monarchs. What I do care about is the blatent contempt for democracy the leaks reveal.

The nuclear negotiations weren't going well way before the current leaks at all so I'm not sure what your point is. And why should we go to war? If the public had a say with a fair free press at the helm with all the facts laid out on the table in front of them without the usual bullshit propaganda and double standards then I very much doubt anyone would want war. In fact even with all the anti Iran rhetoric the world wide public is still anti war.

I'm not sure what your point is about WW1 deals. A time when women couldn't vote in most countries and ethnic minorities were treated as second class citizens. We've moved on from then, we are much more civilised and better informed. And for your information Germany was still very severly punished (which in some ways lead to WWII), Ottomon Empire was broken up and distributed amongst the victors (the effects of which are still being felt today) and the Austrian Hungary empire was no more. So not sure what concessions the victorious Allies made to the defeated Axis powers.

Unlike you I think people should have a say in what deals our elected representatives make. We are not all war mongerers, that's the politicians and the mainstream corporate media.

People are condeming wikileaks specifically for publishing things like how absassadors refer to eladers, and as you said... those leaders do care... and it does effect neogtations.

And no... we havent moved on from there.  If all negotiations were purley open, we'd never make deals... at all... and yes people would be for going to war with Iran.  Right now the only reason people DON'T support bombing Iran is because they expect the negotiations to go well.   If they don't go well?  Guess what will happen?

Guess how impossible negotiations would be, if we had to do it in public where they even refuse to admit what they are doing?

You are naive if you don't think 70-80% of the stuff wikileaks is releasing only makes diplomacy harder, and conflict more likely.

 

Also, you do realize that opinion poles that most people DO favour and attack on Iran if they don't give up their program right?

http://www.zogby.com/news/readnews.cfm?ID=1379

This is without the american people being fully informed about all those extra steps that Iran is doing to make Nuclear weapons like the russian rockets document wikileaks released and this was before we knew they had state of the art advanced power plants, back when we thought they were 1970's era plants.

 

There are plenty of other polls in general that show if Iran refuses to give up it's weapons most people support attacks.



Around the Network

I'm pretty sure that US stealing the diplomats' credit card numbers, figner prints, dna, email passwords, etc... are far more damaging to negotiations than US' opinions of them.



shio said:

I'm pretty sure that US stealing the diplomats' credit card numbers, figner prints, dna, email passwords, etc... are far more damaging to negotiations than US' opinions of them.


True. The fact that the cables are getting leaked in the first place is surely also a bigger problem, since it makes foreign diplomats distrust the US with their secrets.

Ironically, one of the leaked cables actually says that this distrust already existed for German diplomats, and that was of course before the leaks:

http://wikileaks.ch/cable/2010/02/10BERLIN180.html

"

These events suggest the need to
intensify our engagement with German government
interlocutors, Bundestag and European parliamentarians, and
opinion makers to demonstrate that the U.S. has strong data"
privacy measures in place.


My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

shio said:

I'm pretty sure that US stealing the diplomats' credit card numbers, figner prints, dna, email passwords, etc... are far more damaging to negotiations than US' opinions of them.

I don't see your point.

Finding out that I'm stealing from my company is more damaging then the public posting of a hacked email account where I call my boss a tool.

The email where I called my boss a tool still shouldn't be released to the public.



Here are your sexual charges -.-

"The two Swedish women who accuse WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange of sexual misconduct were at first not seeking to bring charges against him. They just wanted to track him down and persuade him to be tested for sexually transmitted diseases, according to several people in contact with his entourage at the time." -Reuters-




benao87 said:

Here are your sexual charges -.-

"The two Swedish women who accuse WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange of sexual misconduct were at first not seeking to bring charges against him. They just wanted to track him down and persuade him to be tested for sexually transmitted diseases, according to several people in contact with his entourage at the time." -Reuters-


Just because you don't want to charge someone for a crime doesn't mean the state won't charge someone for a crime.  If you assault someone in an alleyway and they turn out to be a sadomaschist and not mind... you still committed a crime... and chances are the police will still prosecute you.

Just because a victim doesn't want to press charges doesn't mean the state won't.  Which is why all the "CIA conspiracy and she works with them" stuff always made me laugh... as did the "They want to get back at him! wild accusatsions" when all evidence pointed to the fact that they reported what happened not even sure it counted as a crime.

People are just making up wild and outlandish stories because they want to protect the guy because he's famous.

When they should let him just go to court, likely be cleared of the rape charges even though what he's accused of is rape and there doesn't seem to be much arguement about the situation, and let the whole thing go.