So in otherwords.

A poor person can rob and stab 5-6 people... and it's not as bad as the racist who stabbed one person.

How anyone could hold that opinion is stupifying to me.

No matter how many people the poor person stabs, what he did wasn't as bad as a racist guy who stabs one person.

Really.

That's your opinion?Some poor guy could go a massive killing spree for money killing dozens... and the racist is still worse.

I think the bodycount... and the vast majority of rational individuals would disagree with you.

It's like saying a random racist murderer who killed one black guy is worse then Stalin.  Since Stalin had a better "reason" to kill.

The whole point of the qustion though is to point out the very obvious fact that the crimes simply are equal.

Stabbing someone because you need money and stabbing someone because you are racist is the EXACT same crime.

Stabbing someone twice for money is obviously worse then stabbing someone once because you are racist.  (Well for most people, I honestly never expected someone to argue that there is no amount of damage someone can deal to be as bad as a racist.)

Even stabbing someone once for money and shoplifting is worse then stabbing someone once because you are racist.

It causes more damage.

If you give someone 12 years instead of 10 because of their motive.  You are saying their motive makes their crime 20% worse.

And are suggesting that it is equal to someone else commiting the same crime and something that would get you 2 years in jail.   Like I dunno Arson or something.

This is... stupid.

You do realize too... that hate crime legislation basically says.

Attacking someone because they are gay

is worse then

Attacking someone because you feel like it.

So you can have the exact same setup... someone wants to beat someone up because they are gay.

Another person wants to beat someone up because... they like beating people up.

Both stalk the person the exact same way.

Both beat the shit out of the person the same way.

And the person who did it because he hates gay people gets the worse sentence... why?

Because he was more picky in his choice of who he likes to beat up?

Because his crime had an emotional basis too it... vs say... a sociopathic basis. (i'll let you guess which is worse.)

You are trying to cherry pick one kind of "non-hate" crime motive to support your view... when there are tons of non-hate crime motives.

For example, a guy could be beat up for trying to help a woman get away from her abusive husband.  Again, not a hate crime.   Therefore apparently not as bad... though his actual motive was to keep abusing his wife and the result is more collatarel damage.

Or on the subject of spousal abuse.

One person may beat his wife because he thinks women are inferior to men.

Another may beat his wife because he thinks EVERYONE is inferior to him.

Again, you are saying the first is worse.

Or lets say dictators.

You have one dictator who kills 1 million members of a certain indiginious tribe in his plans to wipe them all out.

You have another dictator who kills 1 million random people because he is a militant nihilist.  He and his followers believe that their is no god and therefore the only worthwhile thing to do is to end all life.

He apparently is less bad?

Oh and coincidentally.

America has 10 times the population.... and 10 times the Hate crimes.

There is no real statistical difference between the US and Canada when it comes to hate crimes.  Fun fact to know.

It does seem odd though.

After all the US DOES have a higher crime rate to my knowledge.

Making are crime vs hate crime percentage lower.

When you consider the fact that some hate crimes have to have some economic factors involved... one could say Canada was worse off in that regard.

Man you are not replying logically. A person who murders or stabs six people is not doing it just for money. Most robberies don't actually end with someone getting stabbed, if the criminal is indeed after money then chances are the last thing he want's is a murder warrant or an assualt with a deadly weapon warrant. I've had two attempted robberies of myself and the second it looked like I was going to fight the purp ran away.

Man you rarely ever hear of a thief stabbing someone for money. I hear about home invasions where people have the shit kicked out of them, but guess what most of the time little is actually taken the person responsable has a problem. They get enjoyment out of hurting someone, or they feel powerful beating an old lady.

Not just robbing someone for money, if their is a psychopath thats going around stabbing people then yes that is as bad if not worse then a racist prick who stabbed one person. But don't think for a second that the person responsable is simply poor and down on his luck. You don't stab 6 different people just trying to get some money.

You are exagerating and blowing things out of purportion. Also the stats you use about Canada, if I recall they were from Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine were they not? In Bowling for Columbine Michael Moore says their is only ten percent of the gun crime that occurs in the United States. Now yes you are absolutely right Canada has 10% of the population the US has. Michael Moore is an idiot and Canada is just as violent as the United States. However those stats were not about hate crimes or racist crimes.

If a racist man stabs a man I think that that is worse then if a poor guy robs someone and accidently stabs the person in the process. Now if the poor man's intention was to stab the person and the motive was not robbery then obviously he is just as bad as the racist. But for someone to stab 6 people in botched robberies all only for money. Well that just doesn't happen and is not logical.

Then you suggest if the robber murdered 6 or more individuals in multiple robberies that I don't think the criminal is as bad as a racist who murders 6 people. Well yes and No, no the robber did not murder six individuals in six different crimes with the motive being robbery, its a insaine idea that you would go six different times and rob six different people and end up murdering all of them just for their money.

Man you know what you replied what four times to your own posts without anyone here actually debating this with you? Geez at least wait till someone is actually here to debate. Its all fun and games to mock people and insult their views while their not actually present to defend thier views, but it just isn't mature.

Bowling from Columbine?  Hell no.

I'm using the official US and Candaian hate crimes laws.   As for regular crimes.  Was just a guess.

You are saying hate crimes are ALWAYS worse while ignoring things like serial killers... whose crimes aren't based on hate.

That's what hate crime legislation does.  It makes people who intentionally stab someone less guilty then other people who intentionally stab someone, because of the reason they did so.

It makes someone who stabs someone for fun.... less guilty then someone who stabs someone for fun, because they were of a different race.

If that's not your arguement I don't get why you replied to me in the first place.

We are talking, exact same cime... executed the exact same way, the only difference is the reason the victim was chosen was different.

Laws, i meant about your 10% stat you quoted, if that didn't come from Bowling For Columbine. Where did it come from? I'd like to see a source that gives actual stats like that on hate crimes commited in Canada compared to the US or even crimes in general.

Now we are switching the question. You said thief who stabbed people, then you said theif that killed someone for money. Now your saying serial killer. A racist who kills a half dozen people is a serial killer and is just as bad as any other serial killer. The crime is just as bad but why did the other man kill several people? Was it a mental illness?, was it psychological? Was it a hate crime?

Example several serial Killers go around killing prostitutes because they hate them for what they are doing. Here in BC we had Pickton a serial killer who would pick up prostitutes and mutilate their bodies then feed their bodies to his pigs. Was he as bad as a racist serial killer, yah. Why was he killing? Out of hate and other sick fetishes and reasons.

What is the motives behind the serial killer, its not like you just go around killing people for no reason? its almost always hate or psychological.

I won't say all serial killers are nescessarily better then racist serial killers. Because thats not the question I origionally answered and that is not my opinion. Just because I think a hate crime like stabbing someone or burning a cross on someones lawn or attacking someone is worse then someone who does it for non hate purposes. Does not mean I think any murderer is better or worse then another murderer. Their are several motives behind murder and none of them are better or worse then one another.

Geez stop trying to exagerate what I say. Also you keep changing your question as I pointed out. Each time getting more drastic and changing the basis of the question.

If someone robs a man because their black is it worse then someone robbing a man because he's poor? (Yes)

If someone accidently stabs a man in a botched robbery is it better then someone who hunts down a black man and stabs him over his skin colour. (Yes)

If someone accidently kills a man in a botched robbery is he better then someone who kills a man intentionally because of skin colour. (Yes)

If someone kills multiple people in robberies is he better then someone who kills multiple people over race/sexual orientation. (Well I said that nobody kills mutliple people in botched robberies) So the question you clarify changing your question yet again is. Is a serial killer who intentionally goes around killing people any better or worse then a serial killer who goes around killing based on skin colour?

Answer - That is entirely different then robbery. The motive in both is a sick and twisted hateful or psychological motive. Both intend to kill and as such both are commiting the exact same crime. Their is no accident both set out to kill multiple people and as such both are equally psychotic and dangerous.

Happy now. I've answered every one of your questions in all their revisions and forms. Now why don't you stop trying to stuff my ideology into a stereotypically black and white answer and actually read my opinions. I bet Sapphy has similiar views and if you choose to ask him his answers and he chooses to answer you and debate then that is his choice.

But please don't go attacking people who aren't present to defend themselves or debate with you. Its just immature and wrong.

Actually, I was just providing more information that proved your points wrong.  You know, that's why each new post had new information.

As for the hate crime statistics... I looked up a news article on hate crimes in Canada in 2008.   Then compaired it with the 2008 stats compiled by the Derpatment of Justice.  It was roughly 1,000 vs roughly 10,000.

Someone stabbing someone accidentally is not even the same crime as intentionally stabbing someone is not even the same crime.  Not in the US anyway.

The question is... and I'll restate it again.

If two people comit the exact same crime, the exact same way, and cause the exact same outcome.  Is it worse because one person did so because the other person was black/gay whatever compaired to any other reason they may have.

Because when you have specific hate crime laws... that's exactly what it means.

It means if you intentionally stab someone because they were black.  This is worse then intentionally stabbing someone just because you felt like it.  Or for intentionally stabbing someone because you wanted to rob them and wanted no witnesses or any other reason you could come up with in your head.

Yes if the crime is commited the exact same way with the exact same outcome for a different reason. Then it differs based on reason. Motive is what makes one crime worse then another even if both crimes have the same out come and way of execution.

Are you saying a bipolar person who is off medication freaks out and kills someone, should be treated the exact same way a man who is fully sane and comes into someones house not intending to kill them trying to rob them something goes wrong and he kills them? Or someone who hates someones race so much that he goes into someones house and butchers them.

All three are the same crime but three different motives. Can you hold the off medication mentally ill guy to the same standard as the theif to the same standard as the premeditated hate crime? No  you can't. Some things aren't black and white, motive changes things and differentiates between the seriousness of the crime.

Another example. A man stays up late playing video games he rolls over on his baby daughter sufficating her in his sleep. Is that the same as a man grabbing his daughter and sufficating her? Their the exact same crime but for different reasons and motives.

This is why in Canada and the US you have different murder charges. A man who is mentally unstable is not going to be charged the same way as a stable man. An accidental death is not going to be charged the same way as a murder. A hate crime is not going to be charged the same as a the regular crime.

Motives set the crimes apart.

Those aren't the same crimes.

Hate crime laws are laws that take the same crime and add additional penalties on to it because it is a hate crime.

All of your examples are invalid.

Hate crime laws come into effect after the crime committed has been decided.  

As in... someone is walking down the street... they bump into that person accidentally, then stabs them intentionally.

Should they be punished differently because

A) He did it because he was black.

B) He did it because he wanted to

C) He did it because he was angry

We are talking exact same circumstances here... exact same facts of the crime... exact same control of their faculties.  There are no accidents or extreme mental problems... just outright adults doing the same crime for different reasons.