Michael-5 said:

Well sometimes you ignore my arguement because you find it "stupid" and instead of replying to it, you demean me. It's not a debate when either of us ignore the point the other is making, and we both have done that a fair amount.

i never ignore your argument,i debate it once or twice but you just keep coming with the same argument and learn nothing from the debate

No you completely ignore many points, especially when you don't agree with them, and usually you don't give any real sound reason for not agreeing with them. You ignore them, I expand, and then you say I repeat the same arguement, but I expanded, which is different.

that is when i just brush aside it and not comment on it and that is when i advice you or ask you to stop doing it and you think of it as demeaning you

Why would we ignore a good point? Why do you get to pick and choose the debatable topics? If it's a good point, and you can't come up with a counter arguement, don't insult me for bringing it up and saying "it's not relavant." I think it is.

But you see, sometimes what you feel is "corrected" is actually just injecting your opinion into it, and ignoring my point because in your eyes it's just false. You don't have to agree, but just leave it at that. Don't "correct" me unless I actually give an incorrect number, like a price, or a value for units sold.

actually that is totally wrong

after some time on this site,you mature and you comment based on what the trends are not just your own opinion 

i used to be like you when i first join this site but 3 years on this site,your arguments become mature at that time

This in it's whole is demeaning, your talking down to me as if your style of commentation is somehow more "mature." When your arguement is based on demeaning my opinion, simply because you disagree, how does this imply maturity?

I know I bring up demeaning me frequently, but every post you like to talk down to me in some way..

and i just don't ignore your argument,i take it in and comment on where i dodn't agree based on how trends go

Your opinion on trends, I try to show you how your opinion may not be correct (e.g. 360 being priced at $200, when most sales are $300 Elite sales)

correcting is what is debating,you give your side of view.its a discussion

but you don't "correct" you tell me your opinion and present it onto me as fact, and when I provide a counter argue-ment you ignore and tell me to stop commenting because your opinion is "correct" despite a lack of supporting evidence.

Saying things like "I twist the truth" "my theory is stupid" "diliberate mistake" "bias" "I prove myself wrong, and then insult myself, so no counter arguement was needed." thats all demeaning.

cause that is what you did

saying xbox is a bigger brand than playstation  and your reasoning about that comment is foolish

Stop demaning me. You think otherwise thats fine, and I never said bigger I said as big. Do I come back to this and say you're "twisting the truth?" No.

then you try to make move sound alot more expensive

It can be, and I proved to you how. If you disagree say it, but don't mock me because "I tried to make something this"

your theory are like from a dreamland

insult

and you trying to say that you make mistake both sides to prove yourself

 demeaning

there are way more things that all these mentione that you do

 demeaning, essentially talking down to me.

Also when you word your responces in such a way that you talk down to me "You fail again",laughing at my responces, saying things like my arguement is "being optimistic of what I want to succeed." Thats demeaning, and it just makes it unpleasent to debate.

thats cause you repeat the same argument again and again and again and which argument doesn't that up

If you actually read my arguements, I don't repeat anything. I expand and include other supporting arguements previously not mentioned.

Anyway no more lecture, you want to keep the debate clean, then I'll stick in it. This is all I wanted from you.

just hold your opinions and debate and think what is accepted not just throw it out

What is accepted, is not what you beleive to be accepted.

its good you give your opinion but also think what kind of opionion stands its ground and appropraite

I brought in Move because Move did boost PS3 sales by 60-80k weekly. Thats significant, and the purpose of bringing Move in, is because I use it as a scale of how well Kinect will push consoles. I need to compare the console selling capability of Kinect to something, something preferably Sony, and Move is it's most direct compeditor.

that was alrite to bring the MOVE in for sales comparision

but you should know the impact and the push are going to be different as they both are different peripheral and going fro different startegy

They are different, but very similar, and if they both push as many consoles, then it doesn't matter how different they are. They keep the 360/PS3 difference on par.

also you brought in move to pricefight which wasn't needed

Actually you did when you said that the Kinect is an expensive peripheral and it wouldn't sell. I added Move in a console bundle Kinect and Move both add $100, so in terms of console pushing abilities, they are equally priced, and since Move is pushing consoles, it would make logical sence that Kinect push bundles too.

also MOVE didn't oost shit for PS3,the VGC adjustment numbers were just assumption and no tracking was done so just leave the argument there

I did, I said I'll take VGChartz numbers, and Press conference data over your theory.

2012 or 2013. If MS releases a successor console to the 360 in 2013, the 360 will have been MS's mainstream home console for 8 years, and thats too much as it is. In the past no console has had their mainstream console last more then 6 years, this includes successful consoles like the PS1, PS2 and NES.

againi just asked you for your opionion on the next gen console,you didn't need to add other bullshit cause that wasn't anywhere near the debate

I am entitled to explain my opinion.

this is being foolish(corry i just have to put it in here cause you are stubborn)

and you think MS will hold off PS3 till 2013,that is being totally optimistic and you know that

 Now your just mocking my opinion, and calling me stubborn because I don't agree with you. I don't agree with you, why can't you accept that? Why do I have to be a fool because I don't agree with 1 person who only owns Playstation branded devices, and lived most of his gaming life in the time Playstation trumped with the PS1 and PS2.

3.9 million gap, shipped consoles do not reflect sold units,

shipped consoles reflect how soon the gap is reducing and the sold units aren't true atm

No because different manufacturers ship at different times. E.G. If MS didn't ship Kinect figures at the time at 2.9 million shipped difference was given, then the shipped value will be a lot larger now.

and No. In the past the difference in console sales has fluctuated heavily. Just a year ago the difference was 8.1 million sold. PS3 really benefited from the PS3 Slim and price cut, the 360 Slim could not ever have done as well because it no longer has that "shocking" aspect.

in the past the sales have fluctuated cause PS3 was out of the reach of alot of peopl,now it is in reach and next year it wil become in reach of middle class

I think the Slim PS3 was a significantly larger affect. In 2008 when MS made a $300 Pro 360, 360 sales did jump, and the difference grew about 2 million from 6 to 8 million, when Sony made their PS3 a $300 console, MS brought down the price of an Elite to $300 as well, but Sony still reduced the difference about 4 million. Slim Effect.

now if you are gonna complain again on price then think about this

when a console is already in the reach of the people,even if it gets a price cut it won't get much boost but when a product of reach gets into the reach of people it gets alot more boost

At $300 both consoles cost the same, when they both come down to $200, they will both be within reach of people.

I think until the price cut, 360 will sell on par with PS3, and after the price cut, it will continue to sell on par, with minor fluctuations bothways in sales.

well before the pricecut the gap is decreasing

June-September the Gap increased by about 500-600k, September-Now it was redued by about 300k. Kinect will increase it again, and over time it's affect will wear off and they will sell on par again.

and even if yo think the pricecut will nullify each other,the fact that gap is currently decreasing will remain

But when Kinect comes out it will nullify the Move boost, and the short month and a half period when PS3 reduced the gap will be over.

I understand that logic, but how many 360 sales are due to the 360 Arcade? In 2008 when there was a $200 Arcade, $300 Pro, and $400 Elite, I know sales went 10%, 80%, 10% respectively.

keep bullshting

this is how you twist the truth

Michael Patchner, I can source this one. :P He doesn't BS on past sales, if he did he would be sued. Just because you don't agree, and you essentially cannot provide a counter-arguement (making me the victor of this small point), don't insult.

so 360 will benefit about as well from a $200 Elite model. PS3 will probably benefit a little more because there is no cheaper arcade model, so lower income families never had the option of buying a PS3, but a $130 Arcade will probably offset the minor difference the PS3 got from a price cut to $200, so this should not boost either console over the other.

here is why i call you bias

You call me biased because I beleive 360 will sell well. So can I call you biased because you think the PS3 will sell well? I have my reasoning, you have yours, and my predictions follow very logical and realistic trend patterns.

you seem to think all that 360 does can hold and help the 360 sales

but the PS3 strategy would do shit for it

the fact that 360 is already in reach of lower income families,a further cut doesn't make so much difference

But most people don't buy the arcade model, and with a price cut, that arcade model will be soo cheap, a lot of people would get it as a second console.

but when people never had a consoles in reach of their income,the boost is far bigger

and keep dreaming of a $70 price-cut,it isn't happening

So The 360 Elite AND Arcade will sell for $200? Even if the arcade is $150, thats still cheap. Have a retailer bundle it with a game, or just pick up Halo 3 for $10, and it's a bargan.

Besides, a $130 360, how many people can turn that down as a secondary system?

well when they don't want a secondary system they just don't want it

you really think just because the thing is cheap and people don't want it they will just go and buy it.wrong.

I'm going to have to site Gametrailers "The Bonus Round" from now on. I recal them saying like a third of current gen gamers have a secondary console already. I don't remember the exact figure, but it's a lot.

How many Wii owners are there who want to try out HD gaming, but are too cheap?

well wii owners have the ability to buy a $250 console so they should have bought the 360 by now is they really wanted it

$250 is not cheap, it's more then the Wii. $130-$150, thats price of 3 new Wii games. I'm sure some Wii owners would get a cheap 360 arcade to try out Forza, Halo, CoD, or GTA. Remember they don't even have the multiplatform HD games.

How many PS3 owners are there who want to play 360 exclusives like Halo and Gears?

not many

Not you, but sales, and ratings show a lot of people like 360 exclusives, and I think a lot of PS3 owners would consider a 360 when it cost only a little more then the Move. Even if only 5% of PS3 gamers buy a cheap arcade 360 (which isn't many) thats a 2-2.5 million sales boost toward the 360.

How many current 360 owners want a second 360 for a sibling (for those spoiled kids who can't share), or another room in the house? Thats my logic.

again this is being bias

you think all this will happen for 360 and not other consoles...........meh

Will PS3 come down to $130-$150 anytime soon? Did I not mention PS3 and Wii owners interested in the 360? If PS3 had an arcade model and sold ot for $130-$150, I'm sure the difference between PS3/360 sales will see another massive shrink like the PS3 Slim affect did.

BTW - No counter-arguement provided.

No, see I comeplety disagree from what I know about Arcade sales in 2008, and from how little the arcade Slim sales spike was in the summer.

again your argument fails

cause most of the 360 owners were upgrading and that could be seen from never changing SW sales

and the fact that the the arcade owners were  for low income families

 360SW sales > PS3 SW sales, take a look. Also the 360Slim has only been out for a short period of time, when did this upgrading take place? PS3 slim has been around for an entire year, would PS3 owners upgrade too?

who just don't go and buy a new product,they bought cause it was chea and they wanted it

the people who bought the elite andhad maney went out and upgraded their consoles to SLIM

also alot of those sales were from the discounted arcades too

Actually if you look at 360 sales in EMEAA, you see when the discounted units came out, 360 sales didn't really change. They only jumped after the release of the 360 Slim. This is where I trust VGChartz over you.

I think 80% or more of 360 sales are Elite 360 sales, and I've asked friends who work at game stores, they tell me they stock up on a lot more Elites then Arcades.

again your argument and reasoning fails

you tell me i demean you but you demean yourself,you just put out any argument out there

Well in 2009 10% - Arcade, 80% Pro, - 10% Elite, I said "I think" because I have no data to support me here for 2010. However it's extremely unlikely that 10% arcade sales jumped to being anything over 20%, and that shows in the sales boosts the 360 saw when the Slim Elite and Arcade were released at different time. The Slim saw a much much smaller spike, and leveled off just as quick.

 I am being completly reasonable in my estimates and you demean me still, nothing pleases you unless I agree with you, without substantial backing. If you keep demeaning me, I'm just not going to reply to you anymore. Your too difficult to debate, and I think immature.

 We can only speculate, still I agree with you that the Arcade won't go to $100. $130-$150, dunno if it makes a big difference.

when $100 was out of the question,you again comment on it

yeah we can only speculate but we speculate on trends and statistics which you just don't consider

Oh, so what trends and statistics say $150 Arcade over $130? You bring up this arguement, back it up. Originally labeled a "Core" model it was priced at $299, then it saw a $20 price cut to $279 and was renamed "Arcade" since it included a small internal memory this time. Then a year later it dropped to $199, and then a year later was repackaged as a Slim model.

No trend suggest anything, and $130-$150, not a big difference, why are you singling out this arguement when other more substantial ones are being returned to me as "Your wrong and biased?"

Not according to VGChartz, and I'll listen to VGChartz numbers, and data from the 3 press conferences over you. Sorry, your just not going to convince me of your theory, and until proven it is a theory by definition.

and VGC was wrong thats why they readjusted their numbers

you just don't understand the situation

They always re-adjust figures, especially after big press conferences. Generally however re-adjustments are rarely large, and even more rarely reversed (I have never even heard of them, or seen this happen).

Gears 3, forza 4, Halo 4, XCOM, MechWarrior, Project Draco (From the makers of Panzer Dragoon, and likely to be a Panzer Dragoon game), Dead Island, Huxley: The Dystopia (Shooter published by MS if you didn't know), Steel Batallion, Prey 2 (Prey 1 got above 9/10 ratings) is able to compete with this:

gears and forza and steel batallion(this one barely) compete

all other titles you mention don't compete with established franshies now

and saying a game got 9/10 does shit as  high ratings means nothing when we are discusiing sales and push it can give

Huxley is a game being published by MS, it counts. If MechWarrior doesn't count why does Twisted Metal? Both or renewed franchises from the PS2/XB era. Just because Panzer Dragoon was before your time, doesn't mean you should ignore it. This could push a lot of hardcore fans into the Kinect.

Prey doesn't count because it won't sell many units? Well how many units did Shadow of the Colossus and ICO sell (the franchise Shadow of the Colossus is based on)? This goes for XCOM and Dead Island as well.

And Halo 4 doesn't count? and I'm biased...

See your missing A LOT of future 360 exclusives. Not to mention that MS usually mentions at least 1 big exclusive the year of release (e.g. Gears 2, Forza 3), PGR5 is rumored to be a future title,

i didn't mention other exlcusives cause they weren't established  and can't push shit like gears and even forza doesn't do anything

Halo, Panzer Dragoon, MechWarrior, Steel Batallion, Prey not established? Just look at how low prior ICO branded (The Last Guardian) games sold. Look at Twisted Metal too, and the last Resistance only sold 2 million or so right?

and PGR5 well its even worse than forza and it will be the same and nullify and also the fact that 360 have had alot of PGR's and forza's

So PGR4 a game that sold close to 2 million units nullified Forza 2 which sold 4 million units? Both games were released within 3 months of each other. You clearly have never played PGR before, it's not a simulation racer, it's an arcade racer. Thats like saying Motorstorm and Mod Nation Racers are identical.

and FFVXIII is rumored to go multi-platform.

well alot of other shit also on rumour  but we aren't cosidering that

if your argument has no better points than mentioning a rumour then just don't make an argument

It's a breif point, not something to dwell on. Don't demean me for bringing up a valid point.

Not when you actually include the 360 exclusives, and if you include games from this fall (since you included GT5), there there is Fable 3, and Halo as well which will likely push many units this fall, and beyond.

actually you are still being optimistic when there aren't many 360 exlcusives and you know that from the list you mentioned

 Wow, I show you there are just as many 360 exlcusives and you still manage to find a way to ignore my point and demean me.

i just included GT5 as its not released and it will release just before the year end whcih will carry its push next year.

GT5 is the only PS3 exclusive being released this fall.. So if your comparing PS3's 2010 fall lineup I should include MS's.

you mentioning HALO is foolish as its  already nearing 10 weeks and we have seen all the push it can give,

People buying a 360 this fall will have Halo as a new option. Halo is the big fall 2010 360 game, and GT5 is the big fall 2010 PS3 game.

Fable 3 also had its push this week and will have afew over next few weeks and won't carry on next year

1 week is hardly anything for console pushing ability, it's mainly the die hards who buy a game week 1. Also Fable 3 will likely sell between 4-5 million units, so the 1.3 million week 1 is hardly anything.

I have valid reasoning, which shouldn't be ignored.

either you are lying or are optimistic

So you can't debate with me, that is why you insult?

You feel my opinion is unrealistic because you feel the 360 has nothing going for it in the future, so MS has nothing to counter act future big PS3 console pushers.

i never said 360 has nothing going for it but 360's push has already been all done.it has a few other pushes left

Well you say " what ever 360 is going to have will push sales" and you don't think 360 has much going for it judging by your largly ignoring 360 exclusive list.

but not like the PS3 which is still at a new consoles price and have games and pushes coming like its a new platform

 PS3 is 4 years old, it's either over it's 2009 peak years, or at best matching it. It's downhill from here for both consoles, VGchartz analysts expect sales to drop next year.

and you are in another world if you think my opion is unrealistic,look at yours

this is jut an insult. In most of your responce you mock me for my opinion being "optimistic" and I point of numerous valid arguements for why it is releasistic and you still mock me and ignore my reasoning.

I feel your opinion is unrealistic because your ignoring 360 future console pushers (like the 8 exclusives you ignored]

and how many of those 8 exlcusives are established and gonna make a push

barely 2-3 Forza, Halo, Gears, Panzer Dragoon, Dead Island, Huxley, MechWarrior, and Steel Batallion. 8 substantial pushers.

PS3 also has 8: Resistance 3, Killzone 3, InFAMOUS 2, Uncharted 3, Agent, FFXIII Versus, Agent, LBP2.

If you want to include games from fall 2010 like GT5, then Fable 3 (week 1) and Halo should not be ignored as they will still push holiday consoles, and still gain in excess of 3 million sales (More then many other 360/PS3 games on these lists will get total).

Actually your last post was very civil, so I'm very happy. :D

and i'm not cause you returned to being you

Yea nvm you because you again and reverted to insulting me in an attemp to win a debate.

i think late 2011 to early or even mid 2012

the figures are much worse overall 360 and PS3 failure is more than you pointed out

and yeah this one of your replies was better,keep it this way to the point and short

Why can't some people just accept the possibly that the PS3 MIGHT NOT   outsell the Xbox 360?

It's not the end of the world if the Xbox 360 manges to stay into 2nd place.

Why can't some people just accept the possibly that the PS3 MIGHT outsell the Xbox 360?

It's not the end of the world if the PS3 manges to steal 2nd place.

You compelety missed the point.

The point is that too many  people are overreacting.